Pushing forward knee lever: design ideas?

[Bill Dobkins]

Hey Bill,
I like your drawing better than mine.I've seen that setup on a guitar, but don't remember where.

Bill
Edited to say...it was on a Carter.

http://www.steelguitar.com/steelmap/map ... revcmp.htm

Thanks Bill, For me I don't think I would like a lever you push forward. I have been working on a vertical pedal, that you would raise with your foot.

[Ulf Edlund]

Ulf, just point me to the nearest "Knee Levers Anonymous" and I'll try the cure!

There's hope for you John! Awareness is the first step to recovery

[John McClung]

Roger Rettig, do you have any photos of the FKL you had, but didn't suit you? If so, could you post here?

Britt: I have almost a complete Crawford cluster on the left, but after learning the 2 RKL's just physically don't work out well for me, I'm not planning on adding that final piece, a 2nd LKR.

My finding is that the outside knees are the best place to put staggered levers. The leg pushes at more of an angle towards the outside, and is more suited to grabbing one lever or the other than with inside KL's, where the leg is almost perfectly straight. You really have to do a fancy knee dance to grab that 2nd inside KL, and it's just too slow to use in my experience.

The wrist lever is another good option. Or putting E9 changes on C6 pedal 8. Left knee verticals are already hard enough to use, I don't want a 2nd one of those, though I've seen that on 80's MSA's.

When someone comes up with a Telepathy Knee Lever, yahoo, mind over matter and we're done!!!

[Lee Baucum]

I'm curious to know if anyone has been successful at designing a useable forward moving knee-lever.

I would think that you would have to raise the left side of your rear end up on the right cheek to be able to rotate your left knee forward.

After a big meal of bbq, beans, and beer that motion could wreak havoc on the bandstand!

~Lee

[Pat Chong]

Hi John,

Another thought is:
If the lever you're thinking about using would be song specific or not used in all songs, then see if Jim can design a pedal or lever that the function can be changed while you are playing. This possibility has been brought up before........

Pat

[John McClung]

Hi John,

Another thought is:
If the lever you're thinking about using would be song specific or not used in all songs, then see if Jim can design a pedal or lever that the function can be changed while you are playing. This possibility has been brought up before........

Pat

Jim Palenscar crafted a LKFwd for my Mullen D-12 some years ago. It was raising strings 1 and 2 a whole and half, and I think raising string 7 a whole tone. It was too stiff to be usable, so I took off the top string raises and the lever was much better, but still my least used of 7 levers (staggered LKLs; LKV, LKR, LKFwd, RKL, RKR).

Bottom line for me was a LKL staggered lever is the most practical lever after you have the normal 4 hanging and 1 vertical.

And staggered levers on the right knee, I tried both sides, wreaked havoc on my volume pedal work. Somehow Tom Brumley managed it, but I couldn't adapt.

[scott murray]

my Emmons is up to 12 knees which includes staggered levers on RKL (both necks) and a RKV (C6 only)

the Excel I bought new in 2021 and subsequently sold has 14 knees! Buddy Cage had at least a couple guitars with 14 levers.

I've thought about forward-moving levers too but it seems functionally impractical

[J D Sauser]

John, Think of it this way. The forward lever would work the same as a regular lever, only at a right angle.
I hope this drawing makes sense. Parts A&B mounts to the steel body with brackets and the lever would pivot on part A with a stop behind it to stop the travel.

[/img]

John. This how I too would do it.
It’s like most K->R lever reversing leverage. Just that they are not facing each others but sit 90 degrees from each other.
The problem with that is that the contact point moves now not just im one paralel axis but in 2 axis.
You may have seem my flat moving paddle-style vertical levers I added on one of my Excel Superb and posted on the Builder Section.
Mine had a friction spot. My newer design has a both ends pointed needle pin lodged in a 90deg conical seat on both sides which are held together with a spring so not to allow the connecting pin to drop out. It’s friction free as the pin connects the 2 moving contact points.
You would have to do the same or accept some friction, possibly with a delron dot “reader” wandering around on the other lever’s contact surface.

The other solution would be 90deg. Gears. The stop would have to be at the bell crank’s cross shaft for tuning stability.

… JD.

[Roger Rettig]

Hi, John!

I have just seen your 2009 enquiry about photos!! Sorry I missed it the.

I'm afraid i don't. I very quickly decided it wasn't for me. Jim's FKL was very wide: the lateral 'T' bar (the part you pushed) was maybe 8" across and cluttered things up.

Today? I might have persevered. I'm in disagreement with those who frown on adding to the 3+5/4+5 norm. I want more options, not because I can't manage without but because it enriches our musical vocabulary.

I can see a time when lowering 6 and 9 on a pedal becomes standard, for example. I have added a pull that has quickly become indispensable to me: raising the 5th to a D giving me a sus 4 oedals-down on strings 3-6.

I bet there's more.

[Jim Palenscar]

The problem w forward levers is that to be usable the movement and effort must be minimal. The physical dimensions of the lever itself in this particular case were John's idea however affecting 3 strings was not practical in this case. Raising the 1st string a whole step either takes a lot of movement or effort- no way around it- making it short makes it stiff- making it easy makes it long. Just the nature of the beast. Perhaps lowering the 5th string 1/2 step would work better.

[Bobby D. Jones]

A forward knee lever would be physically hard to use. The Knee being connected to the Pelvis by the Femur Bone. To move the knee forward a person must move their Tosh forward on the seat.
Mike Perlowin, Deceased Forum Member RIP. Used a Wrist Lever to fulfill his need for another lever, Seemed easy and precise to use when he needed it, In some of his videos.

[J D Sauser]

I agree wim Jim P.
Unless it’s a really soft one-string change, I doubt it to proove viable.

Alternatives:

- 1 split V-levers (works for me) but a hard change may lift the guitar.
- 2 an insde LKL in the font, usually hanging off the next cross shaft. Works for me very well.

… JD.

[Bill Ferguson]

Probably not exactly the same thing, but my mentor and best friend (RIP) Mac Atcheson, devised a way (back in 1971) to use one knee lever working 2 directions.
He made it so that it worked the E9 RKR and also the C6 LKL.

Here is his design. He put it on one of my steels and it worked GREAT.






Takes the place of "adding" another knee lever.

[Pete Burak]

Here is a pic of a Mooney PSG with LKF, from this old thread:

http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopi ... 0ae633ff98

[scott murray]

very cool Pete! still seems like it'd be awkward to use

Probably not exactly the same thing, but my mentor and best friend (RIP) Mac Atcheson, devised a way (back in 1971) to use one knee lever working 2 directions.
He made it so that it worked the E9 RKR and also the C6 LKL.

Takes the place of "adding" another knee lever.

Mitsuo has been doing this for awhile on Excel guitars. it makes a lot of sense and reduces some of the clutter down there!