Sombody please help me understand....

Rich Arnold · Post by **Rich Arnold** » 6 Apr 2023 9:19 am

On this song the steel player is playing on the E9 and all-of-a-sudden and seamlessly it sounds like C6. You suppose he changed necks? I don't get that.

https://youtu.be/fW5tDTsTfsM

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 6 Apr 2023 9:25 am

It all sounds like E9 to me. He may grab strings 8-5 two frets below zero with his Es lowered for a moment, or perhaps plays pedals-down, strings 7- 4 (the 7th string being the 6th tone).

Pure E9, though.

Richard Alderson · Post by **Richard Alderson** » 6 Apr 2023 4:15 pm

If you engage A&B pedals on E9th neck you get an A6th tuning; (so called "pedals down" position) If you lower your E strings (E flat knee lever) you get B6th tuning; Both choices allow an E9th player to “instantly” or “seamlessly” start sounding like a C6th no pedals guitar, especially with careful three note chord grips and exclusive use of the bar to walk down or up from a IV chord to V chord.. I think that the phrase you are talking about starts in his steel break at about 1:16, it sounds like engaging his A&B pedals to get those high register notes, but then at the end of the break around 1:23 it sounds like he is using the E lowers to get his 6th chord voicings. I have not gone back to my guitar to see exactly if he is using both approaches or just one of those two ways, but those are the standard approaches that produce those 6th chord sounds.

Buddy Emmons had a well known example of using A&B pedals to get 6th chord voicing with the Gatlin Brothers’ “Houston”. Most of that song is done with A&B pedals engaged, and it sounds like pure Hank Thompson. But it’s the E9th neck all the way.

Andrew Frost · Post by **Andrew Frost** » 6 Apr 2023 4:15 pm

Sounds like the stuff you're hearing as "C6" voicings is happening over the V chord, by moving a 6th chord voicing down a whole tone ( 2 frets ) and back repeatedly, on different string grips...A very handy and common move. The tune is in D, so this effect can be done over the V (A7) chord at the 12th fret with AB down. When you slide that A6 voicing down 2 frets you get an A9/11. Same thing can then be done at 10th pos A6 with Es lowered, moving down to 8th fret.. It also works great at the 5th (or 17th ) pos w/ just the A pedal down, moving down 2 frets to get that swingy 9/11 sound and if you're resolving to D or D6 you can catch that at fret 3 (or 15) also with Es lowered. Sounds like the player here might also be tapping into the 6th chord that is rooted on string 9, with the B pedal down. Same trick can be done with that voicing also and it would start at the 7th position for an A6 chord rooted on string 9...

Dale Rottacker · Post by **Dale Rottacker** » 7 Apr 2023 4:26 am

What those guys up there said said... Pedals down add the 7th string, or two back E's lowed or just lower the 9th string at any open position strings 9865 for a lovely 6th voicing.

Marty Rifkin · Post by **Marty Rifkin** » 7 Apr 2023 6:20 am

Hey Rich… I played on that track using a Universal tuning. The “seamlessly it sounds like C6“ is the magic of that tuning. Everyone posting is exactly correct that the E to Eb lever is the key to switching between the tunings, even on E9.

For Heather, aiming at a quasi-Bakersfield E9 sound was the key, but because of the Universal tuning, a small bit of C6 (or I should say B6) easily slips in now and then.

Skip Edwards · Post by **Skip Edwards** » 7 Apr 2023 6:43 am

Yep...that's Marty on his MSA Universal...playing great.
And, yours truly on piano.
Heather is a gem that everyone should know about.

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 7 Apr 2023 8:21 am

I was lucky enough to play with Heather on some UK dates many years ago. She was terrific!

Marty: well played!

(I'm always a lone voice on this subject, but I've long felt that E9 is the better tuning of the two primary ones: replicating convincing E9 sounds on C6 is a challenge. Not impossible, but tricky. On E9, it's just laying there. In addition to which, modern chord voicings are in abundance on E9 - especially with some added low strings.)

Fred Treece · Post by **Fred Treece** » 7 Apr 2023 9:24 am

Jeez, you hear a 6th chord and all of a sudden it’s magic on the E9 neck….

I love the throwback sound of the song.
Jeez, you hear a quality country shuffle featuring a great singer with steel and fiddle, and suddenly it’s a “throwback sound”.

Richard Alderson · Post by **Richard Alderson** » 7 Apr 2023 10:39 am

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I agree with the solo artist Marty who so graciously chose to let us know that he plays a universal. One of the charms of the forum is getting to see somebody play on a CD or on You Tube, and then being able to share insights directly with that artist. I thank Marty for his answer.

Scott Baumann · Post by **Scott Baumann** » 7 Apr 2023 10:53 am

Recent Heather Myles convert. Wonderful stuff. Nice job guys.

Fred Treece · Post by **Fred Treece** » 7 Apr 2023 11:04 am

It’s a great solo, beautiful tone, and a fine song.

Dale Rottacker · Post by **Dale Rottacker** » 7 Apr 2023 6:04 pm

Fred Treece wrote:Jeez, you hear a 6th chord and all of a sudden it’s magic on the E9 neck….

I think I agree… it’s amazing how many people ask me when I play 6th stuff on E9th, “you played that on E9th?”… surprisingly many are surprised that there’s a 7th or 9th string on E9th

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 8 Apr 2023 12:53 am

Dale Rottacker wrote:
Fred Treece wrote:Jeez, you hear a 6th chord and all of a sudden it’s magic on the E9 neck….
I think I agree… it’s amazing how many people ask me when I play 6th stuff on E9th, “you played that on E9th?”… surprisingly many are surprised that there’s a 7th or 9th string on E9th

there's a 7th and 9th string ?

Floyd Lowery · Post by **Floyd Lowery** » 8 Apr 2023 5:08 am

Marty, it is great to put a name with that fine picking you are doing. I also have loved Heather's voice tone and singing for a long time.
Floyd

Jon Light · Post by **Jon Light** » 8 Apr 2023 5:10 am

Bear in mind that pedals and levers on the 6th neck are used more as tuning changers than as bending lick devices.

So not only are you hearing the E lower lever and AB pedal methods of achieving 6th sounds -- you are also hearing picking style focusing on moving the bar more than moving the strings. Changing mindset from E9 style to C6 style (with the necessary pedaled 'tuning changes') gets you a lot of the way there.

Obviously, with a bottom string of .036 vs. .070, there are differences in what-all you can get done on the respective necks. Not being an accomplished 6th neck player myself, I don't often work with the bottom end of my Uni tuning (in the B6 context -- for other stuff I play, yes) so for a lot of what I'm looking to do in a 6th style, there is plenty there on the E9 neck.

Rich Arnold · Post by **Rich Arnold** » 8 Apr 2023 5:34 am

Marty Rifkin wrote:Hey Rich… I played on that track using a Universal tuning. The “seamlessly it sounds like C6“ is the magic of that tuning. Everyone posting is exactly correct that the E to Eb lever is the key to switching between the tunings, even on E9.

For Heather, aiming at a quasi-Bakersfield E9 sound was the key, but because of the Universal tuning, a small bit of C6 (or I should say B6) easily slips in now and then.

Thanks for jumping on here Marty. I really appreciate it. That was an excellent ride you took on that recording and really got my attention. Like I had to play it a few times and I'm like what the hell did I just hear?!

I don't hear anything like that here in Nashville, at least not in the radio. And not enough steel guitar in general if you want to know the truth.
I've been a dobro and non-pedal player most of my life and I should have a PSG D10 within about a week and I'm dying to try these things out. Thanks for your response!!! I really appreciate it and I'm going to need all the help I can get.R

Rich Arnold · Post by **Rich Arnold** » 8 Apr 2023 5:45 am

I also want to thank everyone who posted on this thread.
I should have my PSG by next weekend (God willing)

I'm a non-pedal and dobro player who undoubtedly has gotten too damn big for my britches!!!! I got to a point where nobody could tell me anything.
I'm so looking forward to getting spanked by so many great pedal players that are out there and then be able to start learning new things again. The only way I learn is by getting in over my head, lost and confused so I can figure a way out of it and asking for help.
I think I'll have my work cut out for me and I'm stoked!!!! Thanks everyone! R.

Richard Alderson · Post by **Richard Alderson** » 8 Apr 2023 8:24 am

Dear Rich - There's nothing like getting your first kicks on E9th with pedals after playing non pedal steel guitars and dobro. I came to E9th after playing C6th with no pedals and I found it very liberating. As a matter of fact, I still consider 8 string C6th with no pedals to be harder to play than E9th. At least for me it is. Yes, you have to get used to awkward foot movements, but after a couple of years muscle memory takes care of that part.

Fred Treece · Post by **Fred Treece** » 8 Apr 2023 9:08 am

Rich Arnold, I have seen your videos and you are a terrific non-pedal/dobro player. Once you get a grasp of a few challenges regarding technique, I’m sure you will be a quick study transferring your very imaginative musical ideas to pedal steel, no matter what tuning you settle on.

Tim Toberer · Post by **Tim Toberer** » 10 Apr 2023 7:52 am

Rich you have my attention! I was super surprised and excited to see you are getting into pedals. I see you ordered a D-10 so I am guessing you are going with pretty standard tunings to start? I spent a ton of time trying to figure out what tunings to invest in on both the non-pedal and pedal side. I just want to mention, since you are so well versed in G6, consider that the middle 8 strings of the universal tuning, if shifted down to D9 instead of E9 give you G6 tuning with A + B pedals down. This sight explains it all if you haven't already looked http://www.larrybell.org/id24.htm
Omit the top 3 strings and the bottom string of the 12 string universal. (low to high) Dadd9 = D-F#-A-D-E-F#-A-D with A + B pedals down = D-G-B-D-E-G-B-D

With this tuning you would also get A6 with a 3 on top by lowering the D to C#. Lower the D's to C# = C#-F#-A-C#-E-F#-A-C#

I plan on setting up this tuning on an 8 string in Eadd9 I will also add an E13 change E-G#-B-D-F#-G#-C#-E by lowering the middle E to D and raising the upper B to C#.

For me, looking at "standard" E9 I just can't wrap my head around the re-entrant strings. I know this is where so many of those fast licks are, but I really love the older stuff the best anyway. Also for me moving from 8 to 10 strings was much harder than I imagined! I am sure you will do great with it however. Good luck keep us posted

Rich Arnold · Post by **Rich Arnold** » 10 Apr 2023 10:54 am

Thanks everyone. I really appreciate your kind words and encouragement.
I don't want to underestimate the complexity of the PSG or the difficulty I will face right away.
My D-10 is on a FedEx truck right now.
I hope to start with the basics and build on it so I have a good foundation and understanding of things. I'm going to start with how to tune the crazy thing!
Also, I want to set down with one of the old timers at least once. I've sent a message to Russ Hicks. He has a HUGE sound that I love!
When I was little, I heard Curly Chalker on Hee Haw and would come running and slide in, in front of the TV like a baseball player to hear him play. When I moved to Nashville I wanted to visit him and I waited for a couple years. When I felt I was ready to see him, I was told he was sick and not taking visitors. I regret that.

Rich Arnold · Post by **Rich Arnold** » 10 Apr 2023 11:00 am

WOW!!!

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4w-A3kIF4dY

J D Sauser · Post by **J D Sauser** » 22 Apr 2023 9:11 am

Rich Arnold wrote:WOW!!!

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4w-A3kIF4dY

Curley had C6th on top and the E9th neck on the rear!

But still “WHOAW”! … JD.

Jeff Peterson · Post by **Jeff Peterson** » 9 May 2023 3:53 pm

Randy Beavers is just a great example of total knowledge and mastery of the E9th. As much fun to watch the guy as listen...and a real gentleman. Love 'dat guy!