Is it D# or Eb for E9th Tuning???

Andy Sandoval · Post by **Andy Sandoval** » 12 Dec 2006 10:19 am

Even though most music theory is waaay over my head I still appreciate those that try to pass on their knowledge. You can always skip over the replies if they're too much for your brain to handle.

John McGann · Post by **John McGann** » 12 Dec 2006 10:57 am

.[This message was edited by John McGann on 19 December 2006 at 12:15 PM.]

Rand Anderson · Post by **Rand Anderson** » 12 Dec 2006 11:46 am

Flatten your E's to the maj7 (D#) using the D lever. The D# is now the 3rd of the Dominant V chord otherwise known as B(7).

There is no Eb in the key of B either.

These notes with 2 names are called enharmonics. Which name you call it is determined by the key that you are in.

Em7b5 = E G A# D = E Minor seven flat 5 = Flatten 3 (G# to G) Flatten 5(B to A#) Flatten 7 (D# to D)
Fm7b5 = F Ab B Eb = notice i don't call the B a Cb

Personally, i like to play piano in B#.

It just really helps to be able to COMMUNICATE to the OTHER MUSICIANS who don't have the same STEEL GUITAR as you to LOOK AT.[This message was edited by Rand Anderson on 12 December 2006 at 12:01 PM.]

Nathan Delacretaz · Post by **Nathan Delacretaz** » 12 Dec 2006 12:05 pm

Y'all beat me to the punch... The enharmonics/note name debacle is one of my hobbyhorses.

FWIW, my wife asks me to play in the key of "B Quiet"[This message was edited by Nathan Delacretaz on 12 December 2006 at 12:06 PM.]

Eric McEuen · Post by **Eric McEuen** » 12 Dec 2006 12:13 pm

What Basil, Doug B, Dave and John said.

As Doug says, there is no Eb in the key of E. I'd explain it but you don't want to hear why

I'll take a stab at this part, because I think it's simpler than we're making it.

Any* E scale will have seven notes, with these letters used to name them:
<pre>E F G A B C D</pre>
Whether the notes are sharped or flatted, those seven letters will be used.

Therefore, the seventh note in any E scale will be some kind of D note. If it's a half step below E, it'll be D#.

Clear as mud?

(*I'm excluding things like pentatonic scales, because they aren't needed for this discussion.)

Personally, i like to play piano in B#.

Funny, I seem to "B sharp" no matter what key I play in!

Bill Duve · Post by **Bill Duve** » 12 Dec 2006 1:27 pm

Yabut.....
When I first asked this stoopid question it was in tuning the thing by the book from Carter website,(so I've asked twice) I wanted the E9th Nashville copedent and when I told em it said Ab somebody said "WHAT"?, its G#, Whered you get Ab from, I just now realized it from back then,and I remember who it said that too heee-hee

C. Christofferson · Post by **C. Christofferson** » 12 Dec 2006 2:09 pm

As far as the Sound of the note goes, (in relationship to the sound of E note) i prefer to think of it as the Major 7th.

Alan Brookes · Post by **Alan Brookes** » 12 Dec 2006 4:59 pm

I'm starting a new topic, because from the above comments it's obvious that the complications inherent in the western musical scales, which many of you are experts in, sound like a foreign language to a starter. We should look to the history of musical transcription

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 12 Dec 2006 6:34 pm

What I did not say in my earlier post is that, IMO, it is not required to view the E half-step-lower lever in terms of the E scale. One can do this, but I don't see why it's "wrong" to call it the E->Eb lever. Let me explain.

One plays steel in other keys besides E - there's nothing magic about E. Frankly, I rarely play the guitar in open position. One could argue perfectly well that one should label the levers by their "function", not by their effect on the E major scale. The function of lowering-levers is to flatten the note, hence it is reasonable to label them as such, if one prefers. Similarly, the function of raising-levers is to sharp the note, hence it is reasonable to label them as such. I really don't think this presents any serious cognitive dissonance, the way viewing the E major scale as Fb major would. I think this is mostly a matter of convention - similar to the issue of whether to call a scale with 6 sharps or flats F# or Gb.

I do agree that it's useful to have enough music theory knowledge to understand the distinctions here, but as long as it's clear precisely what the lever does, I don't see any problem with either notation. IMO, of course.

Tim Harr · Post by **Tim Harr** » 12 Dec 2006 6:39 pm

I agree with Doug B. here.

The question here isn't what the notes SOUND like he was asking for correct nomenclature.

The tuning is E9th. 4 Sharps in the E major key signature: F#, C#, G#, D#.

Period. What YOU call them doesn't change the science of the E Major key signature.

They are all still the same sound (enharmonic) but do have a proper name for the context of the tuning.

The more one understands this simple concept the more they will build on that knowledge and be able to grasp other musical concepts.

Being musically educated does not make one a snob.

Tired of hearing that..like being a musician and reading music is such a bad thing?

For me reading and understanding music theory has allowed me to earn a fantastic living. If I wasn't able to read music and apply that to my ear transcription skills (some call it playing by ear)...I would probably only gotten as far as my bedroom still trying to get through the same Jeff Newman course for the last 15 yrs.

However being musically illiterate does make one musically illiterate. Many can ignore theory and still play great but they are the exceptions.

If the shoe fits....[This message was edited by Tim Harr on 12 December 2006 at 06:47 PM.]

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 12 Dec 2006 7:12 pm

Period. What YOU call them doesn't change the science of the E Major key signature

Well, here is where I disagree. What to call musical notes is not a "science", but a "naming convention". Standardization is to afford clear communication. I totally agree that one should correctly name the note if the context is as part of the E major scale. This is to avoid confusing other musicians who have all agreed on a standard.

But that is somewhat different than naming the function of a lever on a pedal steel guitar. Who says that when you hit the lever to go from E to one half-tone lower that you're playing in the key of E? Just because the open strings are tuned to some type of E chord? As I said before, if it doesn't present any ambiguity as to the function of the lever, why does it matter so much whether one uses the sharp or flat notation? It seems a bit pedantic to insist on that to me, and I'm an academician (no, not in music).

Finally - there is no generally agreed upon convention among steel players that one must call this lever the E->D# lever. If anything, I think it's more conventional to call it the E->Eb lever. But again, either way, I don't see any ambiguity or difficulty whatever.

Bill Duve · Post by **Bill Duve** » 12 Dec 2006 7:18 pm

I for one would never imply that Being musically educated makes one a snob..
I had to learn music as a kid from scratch
more less do or die by the parents hand but not actually writing it one forgets over the years, for now as a 66 yr old beginner again for the dozenth time im able to play my own little ditties on the steel and write up my own background with acoustic note by note on the BIAB and thats a lot! it seems anybody that plays a steel either learns some music or as Tim said theyre going to spend their lives hiding in their rooms and playing in secret.
But this is fun , We do get some real answers on here !

Tim Harr · Post by **Tim Harr** » 12 Dec 2006 8:54 pm

Dave ~ you make a good point.

ALCON: How about we agree that the open 2d string on a typical E9th Chromatic tuning be called D# and the 4th string E when lowered by a lever be called Eb?

I thought the topic was concerning the naming convention of the OPEN 2d string D# as used when tuning.

Why when talking in a Major tonality would you not refer to the (leading tone NOT subtonic) 7th tone as it occurs in the key signature?

When you 1/2 step lower the 4th string when barred at the 6th fret (Bb) ..do you call it Bbb? Do you call the 2d string on the same barred fret Bbb (B double flat.. no most do not. I would call this note in both situations an A because there is no Bbb in the Bb key signature - there is however an A in a Bb key signature.

"oh, you call the 6th fret A# not Bb...? Yikes!

I like to think that key signatures are a little more standard than a PSG.

The PSG to me is a musical instrument, not a pitch changing, "lick-producing" device.

**I offer my opinions with the utmost respect and understanding that everyone looks at this instument a little bit differently** [This message was edited by Tim Harr on 12 December 2006 at 09:10 PM.]

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 12 Dec 2006 9:10 pm

The Carter Manual states that 2nd String, 4th String LKR and 8th String LKR is to be tuned to Eb.

We're both right! There are two issues here.

I totally agree that it makes total sense and is "correct" to call the note D# in the context of the E major scale. But I don't think it matters whether we call the LKR an E->D# lever or an E->Eb lever because neither creates any confusion.

If I was playing in E, then I would name the note caused by lowering the open string 4 one half tone a D#. But if I was playing in F and did the same thing, I'd call it Eb. I can imagine doing either of these.

I agree that the PSG is a musical instrument, and it's also a pitch-changing device. Dualities like this occur often - wave-particle duality, frequency-time duality, circle-of-fifths/circle-of-fourths duality, you name it. Better taste - less filling.

Tim Harr · Post by **Tim Harr** » 12 Dec 2006 9:17 pm

Dave - again well put.

The frame of mind/thought process that it is a musical insrument is what I was talking about.

There are some who play the PSG merely to reproduce licks and have no Earthly idea what they are musically producing. This is fine and I am taking nothing away from them.

My big point is when referring to the PSG strictly in a musical instrument context, standard accepted musical rules may be applied.

Why should somone who plays multiple instruments all of the sudden start talking contrary to standard (musical) just because they are playing PSG. Wait. Don't answer that.

Happy Holidays

[This message was edited by Tim Harr on 12 December 2006 at 09:24 PM.]

Tim Harr · Post by **Tim Harr** » 12 Dec 2006 9:23 pm

Another afterthought:

When reading music, it will (95% of the time) disply the leading tone in the context of the key signature.

I guess that is why I developed the habit of "hearing it like i see it"

just ranting...

Doug Beaumier · Post by **Doug Beaumier** » 12 Dec 2006 11:34 pm

I agree that it makes practical sense to call this lever "E to Eb". I did that for 20 years before I knew any better!

The "E to Eb" label reminds us that this level Lowers (flats) the E. It makes perfect sense to pedal steel players. It's a way to remember the function of the lever: lower the E's.

but... IF you call your Tuning E9... this lowered note is a D#. The fact that a knee lever lowers the E string to create the note does Not mean that the note should be called Eb. We are playing an E based open tuning. Stringed instrument tunings are described by the pitches of the Open strings. It seems to me that the pedal/lever changes on our PSG should be described in terms of the open strings as well.

If it makes you happy to call it Eb, or the "major7 lever", or LKR, or... the Mickey Mouse lever, go for it!

Happy Holidays to all forum members!

------------------
My Site - Instruction

[This message was edited by Doug Beaumier on 13 December 2006 at 02:21 AM.]

Jerry Hayes · Post by **Jerry Hayes** » 13 Dec 2006 6:50 am

I apologize if my previous post offended anyone but I'm an old geezer (67 in January) and don't know any better. I think that a lot of older players like myself were brought up in music where there wasn't as much knowlege in music theory as there is today! Just look back at Winnie Winston's book where he lists the copedants of the major players and such. There's no D#'s, it's all Eb, Bb, etc. When someone today asks me my copedant, I always tell them all the open strings and changes in sharps like it's supposed to be. It's just that old habits are hard to break! I've found that to a man, most steel guitarists have a far greater knowlege of music theory than say, lead guitarists. I personally played lead guitar for a long time before I took up pedal steel and my theory has greatly improved because of it. Pedal steel has taught me to look at a chord on the neck in front of me and know where the roots, fifths, thirds, ect. are located. You then can figure out simple things like flattening thirds gives you a minor, raising the fifth, an augmented, and so forth. If you're explaining a change to a non-steeler, sometimes it's easier to be "not correct". I have had the experience of showing a pretty good guitarist some of my changes and said "This lever gives me a D#" and was asked, "How do I make that on a standard guitar?". I know it was dumb, but it happened. I just said "It's an Eb" and he knew what I was talking about..........JH in Va.

------------------
Don't matter who's in Austin (or anywhere else) Ralph Mooney is still the king!!!

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 13 Dec 2006 7:16 am

Glad you posted that, Jerry! I was a bit disappointed to see that earlier post of yours, because I think it is important to make every effort to come to terms with music theory.

I DO agree that studying pedal steel will get you to be a little more analytical of chord/scale theory, and that's a good thing for everyone!

Of course it should be all sharps if we're talking of the E9th neck.

Having said that (and having frowned at your earlier post!), I found myself describing my "Bs to Bb lever" the other day! I corrected myself, but it was too late

.....

RR

Kyle Everson · Post by **Kyle Everson** » 13 Dec 2006 7:26 am

I don't mean to confuse anyone, but I have a question relating to the individual notes in the tuning. If, for instance, you use the Jeff Newman chart where the 2nd string is tuned to 439, and the lower on the fourth string is tuned to 440.5, then does that mean you could name them differently?

Am I correct in seeing 440 as the proverbial "fence" where it could be named D# or Eb, and that anything sharper than 440 could be considered "leaning" closer to D#, and anything flatter than 440 could be considered "leaning" towards Eb, and thus be named accordingly?

Sorry to change the subject, but this topic is very stimulating and made me wonder about this.

------------------
Kyle Everson
Sho-Bud Pro-II
Fender Twin Reverb
Goodrich 120

[This message was edited by Kyle Everson on 13 December 2006 at 07:27 AM.]

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 13 Dec 2006 8:45 am

Well, this is all nit-picking, but for whatever reason, some of us enjoy that sometimes. Everyone is right of course that in the key of E the 7th tone of the scale is D#. This is the convention for two reasons. In some cases the conventional rule for naming keys as sharp keys or flat keys is done to keep the key signature as simple as possible (fewest number of sharps or flats). But if you look at the key of E, and call F# G# C# and D# by their flat names, you get Gb Ab Db and Eb. It’s actually the same number. But notice that there are already an A and an E in the scale, regardless of whether you use sharps or flats. In written music the staff lines and spaces correspond only to the letters (the white keys on a keyboard), and sharps and flats (the black keys) can only be designated in the key signature or written next to the note as accidentals. For the normal scale tones, the sharps and flats are not written next to the notes, one is expected to remember them from the key signature. So the Ab and Eb would be written as the same note as the A and E on the staff. As someone pointed out above, you could call Eb an Fbb, since the letter F is not otherwise used in the flat version of the scale. To find an unused letter for Ab you would have to use C and call it Abbbb. That would make the key signature very strange. Fortunately, if you just use the sharps, the key of E works out fine, with four sharps and no letter used twice in the scale. So that is the reason to name the notes as sharp in the key of E.

As Dave pointed out, disregarding the scale, and just considering a single note or string that is altered by a lever or pedal, you can call it whatever you want. In scales other that E (that is, at frets other than the nut or 12th fret with no pedals down) the scale note might be a sharp or flat or natural. It actually helps understand the function of the pedal or lever to call lowers flats and raises sharps. But if you know the E scale (which we all should if our instrument is tuned to it), using the appropriate scale tone name helps tie the pedal or lever function to the scale and the number system. We should recognize that F# is the 2nd scale tone, and D# is the 7th. Unless you are going to read music, it is actually more helpful with steel guitar to know the scale degree number than the letter name and sharps and flats. That way you can know how to use the pedals and levers and “chromatic” strings to play scales and chords in any key, no matter where your bar is. So this is a good case for always using either the E scale tone name or the number system.

That being said, there are just certain notes that are commonly referred to by their flat names in informal talk, namely Bb and Eb. This may be partly because when one uses those as the tonic of the scale, those are the key names. We don’t play in the key of A# or D#. So most players with even a small amount of theory knowledge recognize those flat names easier than the corresponding sharp names. It doesn’t bother me to see those flat names used in writing out a copedant. But it does tend to let you loose track of the relationship of the change to the scale.

The idea that using the sharp or flat depending on which side of 440 the note is tuned for just intonation (JI) will not work. There are actually about 12 different places around 440 that the note A is tuned to in the 12 different possible keys, depending on which degree of the scale A is used for, and the same is true for notes designated by sharps and flats. Naming notes according to their relation to 440 would result in many conflicts with the conventional key signature naming system described above. For example, as the 3rd of the E scale, G# is flat of 440. So using the direction from 440 to name flats and shaprs would lead to very bizarre key signatures using both sharps and flats.

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 13 Dec 2006 8:47 am

Kyle - I don't see it like that. If you're in the key of B, which has a 5 sharps key signature, and you're using just intonation, then the major 3rd is definitely flat of 440, but is still, functionally, a D#, not an Eb. In the context of a key, one goes by the key signature or risk confusing people who read music.

Kyle Everson · Post by **Kyle Everson** » 13 Dec 2006 9:16 am

Thanks, I wasn't sure. This has become a very interesting thread.

Gene Jones · Post by **Gene Jones** » 13 Dec 2006 10:10 am

Conventional wisdom indicates that if you move "up" from a note, it is a sharp of that note, and if you move "down" from a note it is a "flat".

That usually works....except when you move "up" from B it is not B#, it is C. And when you move "down" from C it is not Cb it is B....etc!

Since the purpose of musical notation is for communication, I suppose that we accomplish that as long as we acknowledge the ambiguity and recognize the correct note regardless of what it is called.

------------------
<img width=100 src=http://genejones.bizland.com/index.1.jpg>www.genejones.com

[This message was edited by Gene Jones on 28 December 2006 at 04:52 AM.]

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 13 Dec 2006 10:28 am

The Carter Manual states that 2nd String, 4th String LKR and 8th String LKR is to be tuned to Eb. I have 2 books that I bought and the Jeff Newman Chart that came with my Carter-Starter PSG notes the strings to be tuned to D#. Are they the same?

The Carter Manual is wrong. The E string is lowered to D#. It combines with the other strings to form an open B6th chord. The notes of a B6th chord are B, D#, F#, and G#.

The difference is mostly in terminology, though. You can think of D# and Eb as being the same note, and only the most die-hard musical theorists will disagree.

------------------
<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b2005.gif" width="78 height="78">Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6) My Blog 
<div style="display:none">