The future of honest exchange of experience and knowledge

[JB Bobbitt]

The times they are a changin.'

In a recent post, Marc asked a great question:"What makes a great solid-body lap steel?" I built my lap steel as "a prototype" and will make changes to the final guitar, so the question intrigued me. I've learned a great deal from this fine group of knowledgeable and experienced builders and players, so I will submit my $0.02 in a reply.

But then I decided to let [edited by author: reference to specific AI robot deleted]* answer it.

I entered "What makes a great lap steel guitar." It responded in 10-12 seconds. This is the result, copy-and-pasted verbatim:


"There are several factors that can contribute to making a great lap steel guitar, including:

Tone: A great lap steel guitar should have a rich and clear tone that is responsive to the player's touch. The materials used in the construction of the guitar, such as the type of wood and pickups, can impact the overall tone.

Playability: The lap steel guitar should be easy to play and have a comfortable feel. The setup of the instrument, including the height of the strings and the action, can play a significant role in how comfortable the guitar is to play.

Durability: A great lap steel guitar should be built to last. This means using high-quality materials and construction methods that can withstand the wear and tear of regular use.

Design: The design of the lap steel guitar should be visually appealing and functional. The placement of the pickups and controls should be intuitive and easy to access.

Versatility: A great lap steel guitar should be versatile enough to be used in a variety of musical genres. The ability to switch between different tunings and pickup configurations can increase the guitar's versatility.

Overall, a great lap steel guitar should provide a unique and enjoyable playing experience, whether you are a beginner or a seasoned professional."

I'm sure most or all the group members would discern this ChatGPT version from the human replies, but I'm not really liking the implications of it and suspect it could impact forums like this one.

Be wary.

*[edited, see previous] is available on the current version of MS Edge, on Windows 10.

[Bill Hatcher]

All the answers are nothing but masters of the obvious…..

[Bill Groner]

All the answers are nothing but masters of the obvious…..

AMEN!

[Dave Mudgett]

All the answers are nothing but masters of the obvious…..

Perfectly stated and correct. This AI "answer' tells you absolutely nothing about what actually goes into building a good lap steel.

The dirty secret is that this type of AI is totally non-context-dependent and crap. That reply could go to practically any evaluation about anything, with names changed to fit the particular situation, and would be equally meaningless.

In other words, nothing to see here, move on. This was programmed by people who know nothing, for people who know nothing, and want to know nothing.

I worked in automatic control, especially adaptive and learning systems, for a pretty long time. 35 years ago, this kind of crap was being extolled as the future. God help us if we let this kind of garbage take over the creative aspects of human endeavors.

All IMHO.

[Jon Light]

Ha. A few weeks ago I stumbled upon a q & a on somebody's site about pedal steel that was so grotesquely stupid, wrong, circular and unhelpful. It took me a moment to realize that it was dimwitted AI blather. I was going to post it here but it was too depressing. Now I can't for the life of me remember the site. Just as well.

[Jim Pollard]

All previous answers are correct IMO. That said I find ChatGPT to be a useful research tool. For instance one of the first things I asked it was how I could use Saltstack to schedule updates for groups of computers on say, the 4th Tuesday of every month. It came back with sensible ways to target groups and actually returned with the code I needed to implement the schedule. So while it's got no soul to appreciate lap steel at least if you ask it the exact right question the exact right way you can get useful information from it.

[Dave Mudgett]

Yeah, Jim - the people that develop this kind of stuff understand the context of computers, writing code, where those types of resources are, search engines, and so on. And this is not evaluative. Chugging a bunch of search terms, much like a search engine, can find things for you. AI is increasingly used in search engines. My guess is that if one asked where to find resources about building lap steels, it would return some useful results. And probably some not useful results. Similar to a search engine.

IMO, what this type of thing can't do is evaluate the correctness or utility of the results. In principle, with the right understanding of context, this kind of tool might able to find enough evaluative material out there to return a summary of various opinions about something like what makes a good lap steel.

I think people expect too much of this kind of tool, and I also think it's overhyped. AI has gone through this from its inception. Back in the 60s, that type of heightened expectations, overhyping, and realization of limitations stalled interest in and progress in AI for decades.

What bothers me is what I see as increasing acceptance of answers like the one in the original post. If this kind of stuff progresses to the point where people know less and less, this could become the norm.

[Mark Mansueto]

Those AI statements are generalizations and I would have been disappointed if that's the response I got from my original question. Instead what I got were real answers about specific items like nut and saddle setup, string height and distance between, body material, scale, pickups, etc.

There is a wealth of knowledge here at SGF and I'm glad there are still good folks around willing to share it.

[George Piburn]

While I wholeheartedly agree with this AI defecation being equal to Disinfortainment attempting to sway people's behaviors --

I gotta say, the results pretty much nailed what all of the lap steel guitar builders known to this forum have done over the last 3-4 decades.

[Dave Mudgett]

Yeah, but change the context a bit and these attributes - tone, playability, durability, design, versatility, and overall - could be applied as "the desirable attributes" of any musical instrument.

And change the context and a couple of things like "tone" with "acceleration", "playability" with "handling", and so on, and this could describe the desirable attributes of vehicles. Or change the names for any other product.

None of this tells you much of anything about the specifics of what makes any of that happen.

I also find it interesting that the attribute 'design' is attributed to visual appeal and user interface only. The word 'design', in the engineering context, is much more broad, and goes to the heart of everything that makes up the whole product. But in the IT field, that is what 'design' has come to mean. So I say, fine for a computer interface, but not for physical products. Again showing the bias of the IT-oriented people that write this software.

[Lee Baucum]

"...should..."

That word is used a lot!.

[Michael Lester]

Fun to read the responses to the original 'what makes a great' question.

Every response is correct - for now.

The state of Ai today can be imagined by comparing the earth to the sun. In 2023, the sum total of information available to Ai via the internet is envisioned as about the size of the earth.

The next version of Ai - right now in beta-testing by volunteers is reported to be the size of the sun in terms of the amount of data. Access to more data will provide more detailed answers.

The accuracy of the Ai answer is directly the result of the question it is asked. The more detailed the question, the more detailed will be the answer.

Following this thread I asked Ai (the graphic version)
to produce images for an 8 string lap steel guitar with an ash wood body and playing card fret markers.

It took about 30 seconds to come up with the attached.
Notice I did not tell it to use only a volume and tone knob. Or where to put the jack or the pickup. Clearly, playing card fret markers was too vague.




Where I go with this is that it is another look into the future. Right now, it's in it's infancy - but it will grow up.

I'll leave with this experience of a colleague of ours in Texas. He needed to have a Legal Document to accommodate a real estate transfer. His Attorney indicated that it would take him 3 hours to research and create the document.

He queried Ai with a detailed description of the document needed. Ai generated a 5 page document that included the advice that 'this document must be reviewed by an Attorney'.

The Attorney, who was a good guy, charged him for 1 hour of review - and reported that the Ai document was very complete and included passages that he would not have considered.

Buckle up...the future is going to be interesting.

[Lee Baucum]

In this case, AI is only going to find what has already been published, whether it's fact or opinion.

If our crew here posts their information on the Forum, AI could find it.

It won't be here to find if the questions aren't asked and answered here, or some other similar forum/site.

[Joe A. Roberts]

Following this thread I asked Ai (the graphic version)
to produce images for an 8 string lap steel guitar with an ash wood body and playing card fret markers.

Well that bottom left pic settles it folks, this is a prophecy from the AI overlords.
A good lap steel: individual volume AND tone knobs for each string!

[Bill McCloskey]

My son uses it to help him write code and it can be a really good idea generator. Some of those lap steel design concepts are pretty cool. In its current incarnation I find it is very mediocre with humor, wit. Asked to write a funny sonate for my wife's birthday, it was pretty bad. Humans are currently still ahead in the humor department.

[John McClung]

The times they are a changin.'

In a recent post, Marc asked a great question:"What makes a great solid-body lap steel?" I built my lap steel as "a prototype" and will make changes to the final guitar, so the question intrigued me. I've learned a great deal from this fine group of knowledgeable and experienced builders and players, so I will submit my $0.02 in a reply...

NO DUH!!!

[Joe A. Roberts]

My conversation with ChatGPT— the future is now:

Q: what are some old songs in the key of B major?

A: Here are some old songs that are in the key of B major:
1. "Tutti Frutti" by Little Richard
2. "Johnny B. Goode" by Chuck Berry
3. "La Bamba" by Ritchie Valens
4. "Great Balls of Fire" by Jerry Lee Lewis
5. "Blueberry Hill" by Fats Domino
6. "Peggy Sue" by Buddy Holly
7. "Sweet Little Sixteen" by Chuck Berry
8. "Rock Around the Clock" by Bill Haley & His Comets
9. "Heartbreak Hotel" by Elvis Presley
10. "Summertime Blues" by Eddie Cochran

Note that some of these songs may use chords that are not in the key of B major throughout the entire song, but they do feature sections or passages that are clearly in the key of B major.

Q: Is “Johnny B. Goode” really in the key of B major?

A: I apologize for the error in my previous response. "Johnny B. Goode" by Chuck Berry is actually in the key of Bb major, not B major. I apologize for any confusion this may have caused. Thank you for bringing this to my attention.
However, if you are interested in songs in the key of B major, please let me know and I can provide additional examples.

Q: What keys are these songs in?

"Tutti Frutti" by Little Richard
"Johnny B. Goode" by Chuck Berry
"La Bamba" by Ritchie Valens
"Great Balls of Fire" by Jerry Lee Lewis
"Blueberry Hill" by Fats Domino
"Peggy Sue" by Buddy Holly
"Sweet Little Sixteen" by Chuck Berry
"Rock Around the Clock" by Bill Haley & His Comets
"Heartbreak Hotel" by Elvis Presley
"Summertime Blues" by Eddie Cochran

A: Here are the keys of the songs you listed:
1. "Tutti Frutti" by Little Richard - the original recording is in the key of C, but some later versions have been recorded in the key of Bb.
2. "Johnny B. Goode" by Chuck Berry - the original recording is in the key of Bb.
3. "La Bamba" by Ritchie Valens - the original recording is in the key of C.
4. "Great Balls of Fire" by Jerry Lee Lewis - the original recording is in the key of C.
5. "Blueberry Hill" by Fats Domino - the original recording is in the key of F.
6. "Peggy Sue" by Buddy Holly - the original recording is in the key of A.
7. "Sweet Little Sixteen" by Chuck Berry - the original recording is in the key of C.
8. "Rock Around the Clock" by Bill Haley & His Comets - the original recording is in the key of Ab.
9. "Heartbreak Hotel" by Elvis Presley - the original recording is in the key of Eb.
10. "Summertime Blues" by Eddie Cochran - the original recording is in the key of E.

[Bill McCloskey]

That is hysterical. Got to be careful how you word things. It is like an old Twilight zone where you are given three wishes, and each one leads to some unintended bad outcome. Wording matters. Interesting that it is apologizing and learning from you. Next week it will be commanding you. LOL.

HAL open the airlock HAL

I'm afraid I can't do that Dave.

[Joe A. Roberts]

Bill, your poem experience gave me an idea. The first stanza, lol, maybe its humor deserves more credit.

“write me a poem about lap-steel guitar”

ChatGPT:
The lap-steel guitar, a masterful craft,
With its shimmering steel strings, it's a true musical shaft.
It lies in the lap, with ease and grace,
And with every stroke, it unleashes its magical trace.

It sings with a voice that's unique and rare,
A sound that can transport you anywhere.
It echoes through the soul with a depth of feeling,
And leaves your heart with a sense of healing.

With the slide of the steel, it takes you on a ride,
Through a world of music, where it's the star of the guide.
It weaves its notes with a seamless flow,
And its sweet, sweet sound can make the heart glow.

From the mournful blues to the upbeat country swing,
It can evoke emotions, and make the heart sing.
Its strings a canvas, on which to paint a song,
It's a muse to every musician, all lifelong.

So, let the lap-steel guitar sing and shine,
And let its magic, forever be divine.
For it's a timeless instrument, with a voice so pure,
That will continue to enthrall, and endure

[Ian Rae]

Now that really is depressing.

I was kinda coping up till now

[Mike Neer]

I am personally very excited about the possibilities of open AI. Like anything else, its success depends on the user and the ongoing dialog that you have with it. As you get your results, you can tailor them in an unbelievable number of ways.

I asked it to write a poem about Hawaiian steel guitar in the style of e.e. Cummings, and while it is not really anything like his style, with simple changes and commands, you become a creative partner. It reminds me of how I learned to become a Google master when I realized that there was a method to deep searching.

I find this to be super corny but I don’t have the time to really delve any further. The devil and the angels are in the details with open AI.

hawaiian steel guitar sings
like a bird with wings
gliding over the ocean blue
with its lush and soulful hue

the strings are plucked with care
the notes ring out like a prayer
they rise and fall, they twist and turn
with each note, a story to learn

the melody takes us on a ride
to a place where we can hide
from the worries of the day
and the troubles that come our way

the sound is pure and true
like the ocean's deepest blue
it flows and ebbs and swells
like the stories that it tells

the hawaiian steel guitar's voice
is a thing to rejoice
it lifts us up and sets us free
with its moving and poignant melody.

[Bill McCloskey]

"With its shimmering steel strings, it's a true musical shaft."

Won't be the first time I've been shafted by a lap steel.

[JB Bobbitt]

The text:

Verse 1:
E7 A7
Well I woke up this morning, feeling kinda blue
E7 B7
I said I woke up this morning, feeling kinda blue
E7 A7
I got the blues in my head, don't know what to do

Chorus:
E7 A7
I said hey, hey, baby won't you come and stay
E7 B7
I said hey, hey, baby won't you come and stay
E7 A7
I need your love, to chase these blues away

Verse 2:
E7 A7
I went to the doctor, but he couldn't help me none
E7 B7
I went to the doctor, but he couldn't help me none
E7 A7
He said son, you gotta keep on playing that guitar and have some fun

Chorus:
E7 A7
I said hey, hey, baby won't you come and stay
E7 B7
I said hey, hey, baby won't you come and stay
E7 A7
I need your love, to chase these blues away

Verse 3:
E7 A7
I played my guitar, till my fingers were sore
E7 B7
I played my guitar, till my fingers were sore
E7 A7
I played the blues all night, till I couldn't play no more

Chorus:
E7 A7
I said hey, hey, baby won't you come and stay
E7 B7
I said hey, hey, baby won't you come and stay
E7 A7
I need your love, to chase these blues away

Outro:
E7 A7
Well I woke up this morning, feeling kinda blue
E7 B7
I said I woke up this morning, feeling kinda blue
E7 A7
But when you're here with me, I know we'll make it through.

[David Matzenik]

To me, AI is of no interest other than its absurdity. It's wide adoption simply verifies the philosophy of Albert Camus, especially the Myth of Sisyphus.

[Michael Lester]

JB... that's pretty good.

The lyrics flow and actually have a direction.

I've heard many a blues tune (and others) that make no sense at all if it wasn't for the melody.

Mike Lester