Tuning: Train your ears...

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 24 Jul 2005 4:09 pm

Frank, your stuff sounds beautiful. If you hadn't told me it was all tuned ET, I don't know if I would have been able to tell. Perhaps if another player of your caliber who doesn't tune pure ET played the same tracks, we would be able to hear a diffence, maybe not. We already have many recordings of Buddy Emmons, Weldon Myrick and others who supposedly tune pure ET or very close to it, and Paul Franklin, Lloyd Green, Reece Anderson, Jerry Byrd and others who tune by ear. If anyone can pick out specific examples of any of those players that sound bad because of the way they tune, posted clips would be interesting. Somehow I don't think posting complete, mixed song tracks with the steel tuned one way or the other is going to show us anything except that the masters can make it sound good tuned either way.

Other than isolated chords, solo steel ballads with long chords will probably best show the differences. Maybe it will come down to whether one or the other tuning method makes it easier for a particular individual to play in tune. It is difficult to make a fair comparison, because if one tunes opposite from usual, it may sound bad at first simply because one is not accustomed to playing that way and so can't do it well. Maybe with some practice it would get better, both because our ears became more accustomed to it, and our hands got better at playing it in tune. Maybe even with some good examples we will keep coming back to what Larry Bell and others have long been saying, a good player who is use to one method of tuning can make it sound good, no matter which method it is.

Still, I don't think we should give up. Listening to some contrasting examples can only make us more educated on the subject, for what that's worth.

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 24 Jul 2005 4:17 pm

Oh Pete, you must just kill you..

EJL [This message was edited by Eric West on 24 July 2005 at 05:39 PM.]

frank rogers · Post by **frank rogers** » 24 Jul 2005 4:30 pm

David thanks for the kind words. I certainly don't believe ET is for everybody, in fact when I'm pickin alone in the basement in "irks" me but, as soon as I put on any tracks with keyboards etc. it sounds much better. Personally when I'm tuning in a live on stage situation I may only need two pitches to get darn close to ET without a tuner, those being E and F#. When the B's and C#s sound sweet against the F#s I know I'm in the "ET ballpark". Thanks again!

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 24 Jul 2005 4:46 pm

I will leave it to the reader to decide what it means when a steeler who learned decades before ET chromatic meters became popular says he takes his Es from a standard source, and tunes by ear. -DD-

Thanks from all of us I'm sure..

It's taken a few thousand words to get us there, but every little step helps.

Even a baby duck can peck you to death given the right circumstances. -Unknown ET Tuner-

You're alright Mr Doggett.

EJL[This message was edited by Eric West on 24 July 2005 at 07:04 PM.]

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 25 Jul 2005 4:09 am

"Frank, your stuff sounds beautiful."--D. Doggett.

I don't know what I could add. What an arrangement.
And that's a real violinist. I'd say there is no problem with that playing and the way you tune.
Gorgeous.

Ray Minich · Post by **Ray Minich** » 25 Jul 2005 7:05 am

The Pythagorean Comma... gotta look that one up.

Never try to have a rational argument with an irrational number...

Great thread!

richard burton · Post by **richard burton** » 25 Jul 2005 11:28 am

My heads hurting

frank rogers · Post by **frank rogers** » 25 Jul 2005 2:08 pm

Pythagorean Comma: http://www.music.indiana.edu/som/piano_repair/temperaments/pythagorean_comma.html

Terry Edwards · Post by **Terry Edwards** » 26 Jul 2005 1:40 pm

Well, that's it folks. the Pytha.. pythago....that theorum.

That's it. "Perfect" tuning is in fact impossible.

Now I can just go back to enjoying playing what sounds good to me.

Thanks for the enlightening thread.

Now where did I put that old pitch pipe...

Terry

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 26 Jul 2005 1:57 pm

I'd say there is no problem with that playing and the way you tune.

You can say that again, Charlie. I've worked with a very LARGE boatload of musicians in my lifetime and none better than Frank Rogers. He is a musician first and a steel player second. He's also a major league git-tar flogger and has stamina on the bandstand that rivals his surrogate grandfather, Leonard T. Zinn. (and THAT'S a compliment)

do I get that CD now, Frank?

------------------
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 197? Sho-Bud S-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Mike Bagwell · Post by **Mike Bagwell** » 26 Jul 2005 5:25 pm

Guy's
Dan Tyack recorded a tune for one of these threads a few months ago. He played one pass with the guitar tuned JI and then another pass tuned ET. The ET version was very hard to listen too. It made me curious as to how he made it thru the song, without subconsciously trying to slant the bar or something to get it to sound better.

Mike

Reece Anderson · Post by **Reece Anderson** » 27 Jul 2005 5:57 am

Eric W....In response to your comments made earlier relative to my questions.

1....Do you believe your playing between jobs is out of tune, and if not, do you believe a JI player would agree?

No reason for anyone to shoot you as you so expressed, and I don't understand how your comment addressed my question.

2. If "averaging is the answer", is that not a contradiction to ET?

3. Motor function is also considered conditioned reflex, and if I were to play
something out of tune I would recognize it as a tuning issue even if it was too late.
I would then simply take the time to tune. A Conn Strobe is a great tuner, and as you know, it also can provide JI reference.

4. I don't understand your response to this question. Would you care to rephrase?

5. Do I understand you to say ET is a "compromise"?

6. Sorry, but I don't understand your reference to this question?

7. I commend you on your playing and I would have liked to have heard your guitar strummed and the pedals and knee levers depressed before you started playing. Possibly you could do so to help validate your opinion when you have the time and inclination.

7a. I'm of course familiar with Buddy's exceptional talent, but at the same time, I'm also aware of other exceptional players who don't use the same method of tuning that I understand Buddy uses. You might pose the question to Paul,(whom you referenced) but unless I'm mistaken, Paul tunes much closer to the perceived JI than he does ET.

I for one never found it astounding that playing a steel guitar required compensation, all instruments have intonation characteristics with which they must contend.

You advocate your method of tuning is simple, but to me nothing is more simple or pleasing than making the guitar sound intune, which JI accomplishes for most.

I too have had students over the past who would not have responded favorably had I tuned their guitar to ET. Even total beginners know when something sounds out of tune.

Tuning JI is every bit as simple to tune, you still have the same amount of strings and pulls. I believe most will agree, JI sounds better when tuning, to which I think you will agree. Besides, in my opinion if either takes longer to tune than the other, that is not the point, the point is sounding in tune both on and off the job.

I didn't take anything you said as an affront. In fact I agree with you in that this issue is very important to all players and to the evolution of steel guitar, which in all honesty was my motivation for asking questions and providing my opinion and observations.

It is not my intention to make anyone doubt their method of tuning if they are happy with their tuning procedure. However, it's important to me players are provided information they need to make valid decisions, which is what makes this discussion so important.

None of my students will ever say I told them they could not do anything. One of the best examples of why I never tell them that, is the late Thumbs Carlisle.

As far as the "usual and customary" approach to playing regular guitar, Thumbs was a total contradiction. He laid his guitar flat across his lap, fingered the guitar from the top, used a thumb pick, and I understand....an E tuning.

Had his teacher told him he could "not" do that, and had it stifled his will to continue, the world would have never had the opportunity to experience the musical gift he gave so many.

This is why I never tell a student they can't do whatever feels natural to them. At the same time I accept a responsibility to each student to teach them as best I can.

To accomplish my obligation as a teacher, I avoid interfering with their natural talent and tendencies by telling them what I believe to be the odds for success if they continue doing something which for most, would not be workable. I would not want it on my conscience that I interfered with or stiffled someones natural and creative ability.

Mike B....Dan Tyack had a great idea by comparing both tuning methods at the same time. Did he place that demonstration on the forum, and if so would you please provide a link.

Wouldn't it be great if a JI and an ET player were to sit side beside and strum their tunings, pedals and levers, then each play a song.

I appreciate all comments and respect all opinions relative to my questions, as well as the positive demeanor.

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 27 Jul 2005 7:02 pm

Reece, and only Reece SVP.

Thanks for replying to my response to your questions. I trust you have enjoyed the work done as per your request on the "Examples Thread". Mr Bell and others have done us a great service to at least "try" and put down some distinct examples of different tunings. I think that's as far as I've seen it go without breaking down into to word games, and nit picking. I hope it continues, and I hope to post some things as I am trying to chase down tapes, and hone my USB on the Pod and incorporate other "tracks". I am either working, typing, eating or sleeping, and the weekend brings two gig nites, and two late sleeping days. The lawn needs mowed and the dogs need fed, and it starts again...

Ok.

Your latest questions. I don't have a lot of time tonite as it's been 12s this week in the rock pit, and I don't mean Johhny B Good...

1. I don't notice it, tune back "where it was" like most all probably do, without a lot of deliberation as I do. I've had "JI" guys over, and they didn't bitch about it..

"So shoot me.." is an old comical expression, kind of like " Well, smear my ears with rasberry jam and tie me to an anthill.."

2. Sure, if that is what you want to call it.

3. I didn't know that. I thought there were degrees of voluntary conditioning, and reflex, the latter able to be controlled through conditioning, deliberately by the brain, but then it was my brain that was telling me that.... Most of us, and I'm sure you do too, say, break a string and maybe the other one on the pull pedals sharp, you usually automatically adjust, though it is "deliberate" and non reflexive, until you can tune, or if a guitar player knocks one out a bit, similarly.

4.In my experience, Reece, everything's a compromise of some sort..

This is discussed in the "Examples" section at length. Myself, I don't detune anything deliberately. It's not "perfect", but I don't "tamper" with it. I've gotten used to hearing it that way perhaps because for 23 years I didn't know there was a different way to tune. Believe, you me, I know that there are people that do it now...

I appreciate your time in this. Paul has answered several questions I've asked him over the years, He's answered every one I ever asked him. I never asked him how he tuned, or why. Others have and I read his answers. I've answered his questions as best I could.

I think possibly the greater the player is, the more he or she uses his or her guitar to communicate, and especially if it is all they do for hours and hours of the day, it becomes the stronger suit of their communication. Few can deny that.

Mr Charleton in my experience was not very verbally communicative. In the couple years of weekly lessons I don't think we ever talked more than an hour all told about "anything". I don't think he could have told me more than he did with his guitar.

It's a choice that I'm glad you, Paul, Mike Randy, Tommy, Lloyd, Buddy, Bobbe, Gary, Lynn, Larry, Bruce, and others have made.

You won't need to go very far to "catch me up", if I get into overly "complex issues" or try to answer overly complex questions. I'm not as clever as I wish I was. I'm usually too tired.

I'm just a plain old guy that's played a lot of gigs tuning the same way with a lot of different bands, and giving you answers off the top of my head.

I tune to what my tuner says, play a guitar that has damn near no "cabinet drop" thanks to Duane and Jeff, and play gigs every weekend with few exceptions. Sometimes they are satisfying and gratifying, sometimes I just take the money. Though I always at least get that.

Thanks for your playing, your positive examples, your correspondence, and your treating me like I was worthy of your asking me even one question.

Some of your questions were a little confusing, and I think it's more on my part.

I apologize. No "If", anywhere.

Anyhow, I hope you'll approve of, and peruse the "Examples" thread if possible. There's a lot of good "explanation" in it.

Sincerely Reece,

EJL [This message was edited by Eric West on 27 July 2005 at 09:19 PM.]

Tom Olson · Post by **Tom Olson** » 27 Jul 2005 9:03 pm

I'm curious --

is there by any chance a method written out for tuning a psg in a manner equivalent to that provided in the link in the first post of this thread? If so, where can I find it? Thanks.

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 28 Jul 2005 3:16 am

Oops; I just re-read your question, Tom.
You can ignore this, as it doesn't relate to PSG.

Tom,
I don't know if it's written down. A luthier showed me this tuning, and it may be common for shop work, as it's quick (quicker than reading the article).
It relies on an A or E starting point, and you don't have to use harmonics, you can tune adjacent strings at the 5th fret.
The key is the unisons of the first string, 3rd fret, with the G string; and the 2nd string, third fret, tuned to the D string.

You just play with that guideline and get a method that works for you.[This message was edited by Charlie McDonald on 28 July 2005 at 04:24 AM.]

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 28 Jul 2005 9:28 am

Tom, nothing analagous to that article can be done on pedal steel. Those instructions for fretted guitars simply told how to tune a string that is fretted at a particular fret to a unison or octave of that same note on a previously tuned string or its octave harmonic. Since PSG has no frets, that cannot be done.

The way equal temper (ET) is done on steel guitars these days is to use a chromatic electronic tuner, such as a Boss TU12, Korg, or Peterson. If you become accustomed to tuning strict ET, you can get fairly close by ear if you have a pitch source that is not chromatic. You simply tune the chords by ear and temper the major 3rds and 7ths, and the 6th, a little sharp sounding, and the minor 3rds and 7ths a little flat sounding. But that is not perfectly accurate. An accurate ear tuning method would require timing beats the way piano tuners do, and I am not aware that anyone has ever worked out such a system for pedal steel.

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 28 Jul 2005 11:20 am

Y'know, I think an important issue here is precision. In an ideal world we could tune to A=438.295 at the beginning of the set and expect it to be there five minutes later, thirty minutes later, and at the end of the set. Fact is, IT WON'T. Strings are very temperature sensitive, sometimes stretch while being played, and display an all-in-all IMPERFECT behavior.

Trying to tune to a 'gnat's eyelash' will make you crazy. Learn to PLAY in tune while the string is tuned to a RANGE of frequencies. This skill will serve one much better that working out whether the best note to tune to is 13.65 cents flat or 13.75.

Just my opinion.

------------------
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 197? Sho-Bud S-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 28 Jul 2005 1:55 pm

I agree. A rule of thumb I read on here somewhere is that differences of less than 5 cents are not noticeable. That would be 1.25 Hz around A=440. Some ears can hear differences less than that, but it's just not noticable to most listeners in music. So if you are trying to do better than that, you may be wasting time. If you split the difference between a JI and ET 3rd, you will be within 7 cents of either one (about 1.5 Hz). And tons of steelers seem to be able to make that work. Probably most problems in the studio come, not from how the steeler tunes, but from laying tracks later that the steeler wasn't listening to when playing. And most problems on the band stand seem to come when someone is much more out of tune than 7 cents.

Tom Olson · Post by **Tom Olson** » 28 Jul 2005 2:00 pm

David -- you're right, I guess it would be pretty much impossible. [This message was edited by Tom Olson on 28 July 2005 at 04:32 PM.]

Earnest Bovine · Post by **Earnest Bovine** » 28 Jul 2005 2:04 pm

differences of less than 5 cents are not noticeable

In some cases everyone would notice and not like it!

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 28 Jul 2005 4:18 pm

Ernest, I think the "5 cents rule" is one for practicality, not perfection. I think if most of us repeatedly detuned and tuned the same string by ear, we would be doing pretty good to be less than 5 cents off target every time.

Tom, if you read the writer's harmonic tuning methods closely, and listen to the harmonics he uses, you will discover that he is never tuning to anything but a unison or an octave. The harmonic at the 5th fret is an octave harmonic, an octave lower than the harmonic at the 12th fret. I don't know why that is, but if you try it you will see it's true. The forbidden harmonic at the 7th fret is a 5th, the same as the fretted note at the 7th fret. The writer's method does not tune any notes at the nut except the 1st and 6th strings, octave Es. On all the other notes, he listens to an open string, or its octave harmonic (5th or 12th fret), then tunes another string that is FRETTED to play an octave from the open string or harmonic. He is never tuning to anything but an octave. That is of course the easiest interval to tune, and should be beatless, even for ET.

There is an easier way to do the same thing on regular guitar. You tune the 1st and 6th strings in octaves. Now you tune the other strings so that each open string is in unison with the next lower string fretted at the 5th fret. The only exception is the 3rd string, which is in unison with the 2nd string when the 3rd string is fretted at the 4th fret. That's just the way the standard guitar tuning works out. It is tuned in 4ths, except for the 2nd string being a 3rd. An additional internal string check is that the 4th string at the 2nd fret should be the octave between the 1st and 6th strings. This method gives an ET tuning and requires no harmonics.

Harmonics are mainly useful on a fretted guitar for checking the bridge adjustment. If the 5th and 12th fret octave harmonics don't match the note fretted at the 12th fret, the bridge needs adjusting. But those are all octave harmonics.

On steel, it is difficult for me to see how harmonics other than octave harmonics are useful for anything except for tuning JI. And for that you don't need harmonics, you can just listen to the open strings. If anyone uses harmonics to tune, would they please explain how they do it?

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 28 Jul 2005 5:54 pm

oops. I posted an answer to a question nobody asked by mistake.

As the traveling salesman said to the farmers son:
"It looks like I'm in the wrong joke !"

Bob

[This message was edited by Bob Hoffnar on 28 July 2005 at 07:01 PM.]

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 28 Jul 2005 7:46 pm

oops. I posted an answer to a question nobody asked by mistake.

I do that a lot.

------------------
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1984 Sho-Bud S/D-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 28 July 2005 at 08:47 PM.]

Stephen Gregory · Post by **Stephen Gregory** » 29 Nov 2006 1:04 pm

Interesting........

Gene H. Brown · Post by **Gene H. Brown** » 2 Dec 2006 5:48 pm

Just think, a little thing like tuning could start another war, that's how they start, one disagreement at a time!

------------------
If You Keep Pickin That Thing, It'll Never Heal!