Performance Etiquette

[Lefty Schrage]

Many of us have had the experience where a musician in the group continues to play endlessly (whether it be 'fill' or 'lead') over the top of another musician who has the lead or vocal, etc. I'm just wondering if anyone has been successful in finding a way to resolve this issue in a non-threatening manner that supports the continuation of a good relationship. I have not had any success sharing quotations such as the following:
“A good musician knows when to play. A great musician knows when not to play” -OR- “Music Is Like A Conversation—In a courteous conversation, we don't talk over top of someone else who is talking. It's the same in music. When someone else is 'talking' (playing), we don't 'talk' over top of them.”
Have any of you found a friendly, successful way to resolve this issue?

[Floyd Lowery]

In my many years of playing, when they do this, they are not aware of how to back up and when to lay out. I would try to explain how it should be done. If they were willing to listen, everything would be fine. If they don't listen, then don't worry about it. Go ahead and be blunt.

[Dave Hopping]

If it's happening onstage, what you have is a team member who can't do the gig, and whoever's in charge needs to put a smile on his/their face and do two things:

1) Have recourse to the sub list.
2) Figure out why and how they let an amateur into the work group.

[Jerry Overstreet]

Have any of you found a friendly, successful way to resolve this issue?

No. There's no good way out. I don't even try anymore. I just move on to something more professional. They either know how to play or they don't. Can't teach an old dog new tricks.

Hopefully, if they lose enough jobs, it will one day dawn on them why.

[Fred Treece]

I like your response, Dave. And Jerry, you are accurate too.

This very thing happened to me recently in a band I had just joined. Being the new guy, I did not feel comfortable approaching the keyboard player for being an inconsiderate stage hogging dork, so I took it the bandleader, who was completely unaware. I don’t know how some bandleaders get their jobs! Anyway, this is a band among friends, so it was a touchy situation. It came down to the keyboard player or me taking our leave, because neither of us was going to budge, and the bandleader was ineffective. My only recourse was to stop playing when I felt I was being interfered with. That got the message through to the bandleader. Things are better now.

[Abram Denzlinger]

My most successful scenario was a group discussion about "the pocket", and everyone's role within. It started with 1 song in particular, then gradually became part of how we did things. Turns out I was stepping on other people too. It was a good learning experience and it increased awareness for all of us.

[Dave Campbell]

i have this conversation with the guitar player constantly in one group i play with. there are improvements, but it’s still an issue. you can only do so much. i wrote him a song explaining it:

when you’re playing some honky tonk tunes
you got to play by the hunky tonk rules
and sometimes that means playin
nothing at all
when it’s your turn to fill
i’ll take my hands right off the steel
when it ‘s the other way around
it’s the very same deal
you can’t play no ringing chords
when you’re playing swing doors
and no 2 and 4 chub chub chub
when you’re playing ernest tubb!

oh if there’s any doubt
just go on and lay yourself out
cos when you’re playing some honky tonk tunes
you gotta play by honky tonk rules

[Jeremy Reeves]

I like Fred's approach -

My only recourse was to stop playing when I felt I was being interfered with. That got the message through to the bandleader. Things are better now.

[Lefty Schrage]

Thank guys! I appreciate your responses to this topic.

[Larry Hamilton]

Lefty, as a part time player due to my day job back in the day, I tended to overplay. One night the bandleader/lead player and very good friend leaned over and simply said “Larry, play between the cracks.” I got and understood the message. I knew better but was”excited.” I try to play between the cracks even today. Hope this may help. I thought it was it was very tactful of him. If they don’t get the hint……..
Keep pickin’ Larry

[Lefty Schrage]

Thx Larry! That's kind of a nice way to bring the issue to someone's attention.

[Jim Cohen]

Thx Larry! That's kind of a nice way to bring the issue to someone's attention.

Yes, it is but it still leaves open the question of whose turn it is to fill the cracks each time they occur... a hog may always be a hog... does not "play nice with others".

[Michael Sawyer]

We record every show and every rehearsal.
Thank God i am in a group that we all are critical of ourselves....

[Jack Hanson]

A wise and seasoned musician who once gave me my first pedal steel lessons planted these words of wisdom in my brain when I first started out:
"With this instrument, it's often more important what you don't play than what you do play."

Some guys just wanna play the instrument. Other guys wanna play music. There is a difference.

[John McClung]

I sat in with a ton of bands during my Los Angeles residence, and finally found a strategy that usually worked: before the first set, I'd chat with other lead players and ask if we could set up a standard sequence for solos: as in guitar-steel-other. That gave order to the night and no dead air with everyone not sure if it was their turn to solo.

[Willis Vanderberg]

I tried Johns method with our lead player.
After explaining my self twice he replied….Well Golee Bud what do you want me to do when you are playing, Just stand there ?
I said Robert, that wouldn’t be all bad.
But alas it went right back to Steal The Focus…..

[Ken Morgan]

I’ve been in similar situations. The way that has worked for me is before a song is counted off, directly saying to the other lead voices “you take the verses, I’ll take the choruses…” or similar.

[Larry Baker]

Hi Lefty, I haven't had that exact problem, but on a show I was playing, during my set a guy just come up on stage and started singing without asking anyone. What do you do, I just finished that song He was trying to sing and made that my last song. it was very embarrassing.

[Dave Hopping]

Hi Lefty, I haven't had that exact problem, but on a show I was playing, during my set a guy just come up on stage and started singing without asking anyone. What do you do, I just finished that song He was trying to sing and made that my last song. it was very embarrassing.

Keith Richard had a protocol for that very situation.

IIRC it involved a Telecaster....

[Lee Baucum]

Here is an old discussion:

https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=266864

~ Lee

[Lefty Schrage]

Thanks Lee.

[Dave Grafe]

I sat in with a ton of bands during my Los Angeles residence, and finally found a strategy that usually worked: before the first set, I'd chat with other lead players and ask if we could set up a standard sequence for solos: as in guitar-steel-other. That gave order to the night and no dead air with everyone not sure if it was their turn to solo.

I find this to be a very helpful approach, not necessarily because of players who don't listen but more often when we can't really hear each other across the stage. On a large stage we can fix this with monitors, but in a small venue with everyone trying to keep the volume down it is common to see someone across the stage just wailing away but not really hearing what they are doing over the rest of the band. Maintaining eye contact and guessing a lot can only go so far, having a pre-agreed plan gets the job done with no muss and little fuss.

[Donny Hinson]

It's very hard to correct bad habits that have been allowed to fester for years, or sometimes decades. The vast variety of styles and good or bad habits that we encounter in other players were sometimes developed out of dedication, inattention, and sometimes out of necessity. Some bandmates don't notice it as much, and some prefer it, as is the case in smaller 3 or 4 piece groups. The more instruments you have, the less everyone has to play to get a full sound.

All that said, I feel there is a genre-oriented, stylistic, and sonic character that sometimes allows "playing over" another instrument, or the singer. We find this to be a very common practice in Classical and Dixieland music. Indeed, the composition and orchestration in these genres demands "playing over" other players. While in simpler genres, such as most Country music, it's usually seen as detrimental.
I'm not going to suggest that players should play over top of another instrumentalist or singer. But it's important to realize what is going on and that there are sometimes allowances made for this sort of thing. Music, even simple music, is sometimes more complex and subtle than we realize.

As an example of the two stylistic characters of backup, what I'm going to designate as "call and response" and "playing over", I'm posting two examples below. These are popular Ray Price classic country songs most all of us are very familiar with, but what I want you to pay attention to is the guitar playing, not the steel playing. In the first, we hear the simple an popular "call and response" guitar backing, where the instrumentalist drops out or "backs off" when the singer is singing. But in the second example, you'll hear the guitar playing all over the singer! Which is preferred? Well, it depends; both sound very good to me. But I think it's important to realize that tastefully playing behind or "over top" (as Grady Martin does in both examples) requires considerable skill and artistry. The tone, volume, technique, and sustain must be considered, so it's not something to be done haphazardly or without serious thought to what else is going on, and what the song is communicating to the listener. Again, this is only to illustrate that there are two sides to every argument.

Example #1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mi76pWvnv_E

Example #2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pM11nQZHacU

[Tony Rankin]

Excellent post and point Donny.

I often noticed that Buddy Charleton played “on top” of ET quite often but it was always so right for the song.

[Jim Cohen]

Western swing is another genre in which the lead guitarist may be running fast jazzy lines beneath the vocal. The key in all these exceptions, though, is understanding the genre of music you're playing and having the knowledge and musical taste to know what works and what doesn't and what serves the song (not your ego). It's most definitely not from just playing full-on, all the time, because that's what you're used to from other band configurations (e.g., when you're the only soloist).

These examples of guitarists who are used to playing "Steel Guitar Rag" or "Sleepwalk" themselves with just bass and drums but who make no changes when a steel guitarist joins them (and doesn't even throw them a ride) is simultaneously ignorant and disrespectful.