Reverb / Online Purchase Etiquette

[Michael Bronson]

Hello. Been playing for a few years. Just picked up a LL2, trying to graduate from my GFI S10 Expo. Couple concerning things about this guitar, biggest issue is that LKL, LKR, and RKL don’t seem to be doing anything on the C6 neck. Before making on offer on this guitar I verified with the seller that both necks are “set up with traditional E9/C6 Emmons copedent.” There are also a couple knee lever issues on the E9 neck (LKL raises string 1 F# to G# and does not change string 2).

I’m a little soured - expected to unpack a working guitar and there was nothing in the posting or my messaging with the seller to indicate the guitar would require any set up. There are no steel shops in my area so I’m either going to have to dig in a figure it out on my own (which I’m not afraid to do) or send it off somewhere. Just disappointing as I thought it was going to getting a fully working guitar with traditional copedents

Do I take this up with the Seller or Reverb, or is this somewhat to be expected when buying a 30-year old guitar? Thanks…

PS the guitar smells like smoke, which is my fault for not asking about that - but do you foresee any issues with running an ozone machine in an enclosed space with the guitar to try and knock that down a bit? Or any other ideas?

[Tucker Jackson]

...Couple concerning things about this guitar, biggest issue is that LKL, LKR, and RKL don’t seem to be doing anything on the C6 neck. Before making on offer on this guitar I verified with the seller that both necks are “set up with traditional E9/C6 Emmons copedent.” There are also a couple knee lever issues on the E9 neck (LKL raises string 1 F# to G# and does not change string 2).

Hi, Michael. Sorry you're not happy with your new guitar.

You know... standards are a funny thing in the pedal steel world. There are so many of them. Meaning, it's possible the seller didn't misrepresent the guitar, per se, it's just the what people call "Emmons" on E9 can be a moving target in a few areas. At bare minimum, it means the pedals are set up in ABC order as opposed to the Day setup. And it's implied that some other very common changes are going to be there: raise and lower E's, and lower string 2 and 9.

However, beyond that, some other common changes are just add-ons to Emmons, like the 1st string raise can either be G, G# or non-existent, but even if there is no 1st string raise at all, I would still call a guitar an "Emmons" setup as long as the pedals were set-up in ABC order and it had the 3 most common knee levers. And I have 3 steels that have very typical setups, but don't raise the 2nd string... and I consider them "Emmons setup."

According to the chart below, Buddy Emmons didn't have the 1st string raise on his E9 like you do (though most of us do consider some kind of raise a pretty 'standard' change). But it looks like he did have the 2nd string raise.

https://b0b.com/wp/copedents/buddy-emmons-e9th/


And on C6 neck, Buddy's knee levers only raised and lowered his 3rd string. That's it. So... if you were looking to emulate his set-up, you might be missing the raise on the 3rd string on RKR. Or, it's possible the parts are all there for that and the tuning nut was just completely loosened, or is slipping. Maybe flip the guitar over and work the RKR by hand and see if you can spot a problem.

https://b0b.com/wp/copedents/buddy-emmo ... -copedent/

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[Dave Grafe]

What Tucker said.

This is what my "standard" Emmons setup looks like, much as you describe your new one:



There are many variants, most commonly the "ShoBud" setup that puts string 4+8 E>D lower on RKL. Most Alaskan steel pickers seem to use that vintage copedant as an expression of solidarity.

If the changes all work smoothly and it stays in tune you are golden, nothing to report or complain about. If it plays like molasses or won't stay in tune or something is broken or missing that is a different story, but the tobacco smell is not a deal-breaker as it can be cleaned out. If you are unable to adapt to a different "standard" or cannot make the changes in the undercarriage to please you there are a number of excellent techs to be found here who can help you get 'er done. Congratulations on your excellent new axe!

[Douglas Schuch]

The Left knee levers on steels almost never operate anything on the C6 neck. That's because you have to move your left leg over to pedals 4-8 - and the knee levers are positioned for your leg being over pedals 1-3.

Having said that, people who are serious about playing the C6 neck will typically have an ADDITIONAL set of knee levers closer to the middle of the guitar, positioned to work on the C6 neck when your left leg is centered on pedals 4-8. I have 3 levers there - left, right, and vertical - same as on the E9. So to make sure you are understanding me, I have 2 separate "clusters" of left knee levers - one for each neck. So my guitar is 8x8.

Many pedal steels over the years have been sold with an 8x5 setup - 8 pedals and 5 knee levers - and only the two right knees (or perhaps even just one of them) works on the C6 neck. IMO, this mostly reflects the fact that about 80% of the D-10 owners only play one neck. Yeah, I don't know why they bought a D-10 either!

If you intend to learn the C6 neck, don't panic! Jeff Newman's C6th Workshop video course is written for the standard 5 pedals and only 1 knee lever on C6. Buddy Emmon's course, Basic C6, uses two knee levers (although you can manage most of it with just one). It would not be very difficult to add a bell crank and a pull rod on the Right Knee that currently does not function on the C6 neck so you have two knees.

Also remember that Buddy played the classic intro and solos to "Nightlife" way back in 1962. I'm not sure if his Sho-Bud back then even had any knee levers! Maybe someone can tell us?

[Bob Hoffnar]

I’ve gotten the smoke out of cases and steels by sitting them out in the sun after a thorough cleaning.

And I agree it looks like your guitar came with a standard set up.

[Erv Niehaus]

I've taken the stink off of a guitar by putting one of those evergreen air freshners in the case with the guitar.
Erv

[Michael Bronson]

Thank you all for your reassurance.

Douglas The info about the C6 neck is especially reassuring. The C6 charts I have looked up all have the left knee levers doing something...so it helps to know that usually just the right are set up. I (obviously) know very little about the C6 neck but I am excited to learn.

Dave Graf my GFI is set up like your E9 ... and I like it. My LL2 has that string 1 raise on RKL but does nothing to string 2. I'll have to see if I can figure out how to add that. Also, on your copedent chart, do the "+6" represent cents above the whole tone that you tune to? That's pretty cool, haven't seen that before, but I am familiar with the notion of compensating +/- a few cents on 6-string guitars.

On the E9, LKL also only lowers string 6 a half tone - I imagine I can fix that by tuning the nylon nuts or possibly changing the rod position on the bell crank (?).

And thank you Erv and Bob for weighing in on the smell.

In general the guitar is a bit dirty - I am thinking about pulling at least the strings and pickups and giving it a good cleaning. Are there any posts or guides for cleaning a guitar? What sort of process or cleaners to use on different parts of the guitar? I can see that the changer is fairly gummed up with lint, pet hair, and dried up oil underneath. But it operates well. The perfectionist in me wants to get in there and pull the changer out and apart to clean it and then lightly apply some fresh oil, but that might be over my head.

Thanks again.

[Mike Vallandigham]

You might be seeing Center Knee Levers listed as left for teh C6.

I've literally never once seem a guitar with the far left knees working on the C6 neck - as said above, because you have to move your foot over for pedals 5-8.

Sounds like you have a nice standard Emmons set-up. That's how I like it.

For cleaning, I use a damp towel. Maybe a VERY LIGHT soap solution (dawn or similar). Wipe off with clean wet towel afterwards. And for the underside and changer, I use a vacuum with the little slot attachment. To get into the smaller nooks and crannies, I've taken a metal drinking straw and taped that to the end of the vacuum attachment. Then you have a mini vacuum attachment.

I kinda like smokey smelling guitars. Makes them feel more legit! Sometimes it's the case more than the guitar.

[Ken Pippus]

Herby Wallace used to have C6 changes on his standard knee levers. I would have thought it was close to impossible to use them effectively.

[Damir Besic]

Emmons LL2 is a fantastic professional guitar, spend some time cleaning it and adjusting it to your liking , and you’ll have a guitar for a life time … it usually takes me a month to adjust , and get familiar and comfortable with a new guitar

[Mike DiAlesandro]

Emmons LL2 is a fantastic professional guitar, spend some time cleaning it and adjusting it to your liking , and you’ll have a guitar for a life time … it usually takes me a month to adjust , and get familiar and comfortable with a new guitar

+1

What Damir stated is spot on. Clean the guitar real well and get to know it. The more you tinker with it the more you will begin to understand its inner workings.

Standard setup on a D-10 would be 3 pedals and 4-5 knees on E9th, and 5 pedals and 1-2 knees on C6th (RKR and/or RKL). Anything else is in addition to a basic factory set-up.

If you need any help PM me and I will be happy to offer any suggestions or advice.

Mike D

[Bob Hoffnar]

You can clean the changer without pulling it apart with either oil some sort of solvent then using an air compressor to blow it out. There are plenty of guys on the forum that know what they are doing with that stuff. So do your research first.

[Dan Murphy]

I just bought my first LL2 and have been down the same road. I had to split the Es and get the LKR to raise 1,2.also had to move stop screw for LKR. I play shobud style Es. The guitar I bought was packed away for 10 yrs. All cross shafts were dry changer was dry . I spent 2 weeks cleaning and lubricating everything. It plays GREAT now. The changer is still oozing black gunk between the fingers. The more I play it the more it will push that stuff out.

[Larry Dering]

I have had some experience with the smoke odor. A lot of it remains in the case which is really hard to remove. After gigs I would leave my gear in the garage and put fabric softener sheets in the case and wipe surfaces with fabreeze. You will definitely need to wipe the undercarriage with a rag and cleaner. I personally use mineral spirits but I don't spray any cabinet areas. Others may suggest something better. The damp rag method, fresh air and time. There's several posts on this, use the search for more results.

[Jim Sliff]

I discovered long ago that the "standard" Emmons copedent had:

Pedals A, B & C

E raises (which most around here calls the "F" lever, since that's what it does. ...or on LKL. Usually.

E lowers on LKR. Which most I know call the "E" lever. Or "D" lever. Or it's on RKL. Mostly.

Anything else is a crapshoot. Except if there's a 3rd lever it's generally called the "G" lever, usually blowing "alphabetical order" .

[Michael Bronson]

Thanks for all the help and encouragement. I was able to get some parts from Billy Knowles and I added the changes I felt were missing. I also fixed one change on the E9 neck that was just incorrect (string 6 G# was only lowering to G, had to change the position of the pull train but now have it lowering to F#). These are intimidating to work on but really pretty simple once you dig in.

I do like the guitar, the action is good and plays much nicer than my first PS, and much better tone.

Now to clean the guitar…

[Bob Sykes]

No need to take the changer apart

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_H-I7Jv9Aww

Haven't seen this "cleaning" video posted in a while