Williams vs Excel for U12

Justin Shaw · Post by **Justin Shaw** » 31 Oct 2022 5:14 pm

Has anyone compared these two in person? What differences are there between them, in terms of tone, reliability, and whatever else? Williams' waiting list is about a year, but Excel is only a few months. Any help is appreciated!

K Maul · Post by **K Maul** » 31 Oct 2022 5:34 pm

They are both very high quality. I have played both and(sadly) still sound like me. EXCEL has an amazing design and is incredibly light weight. WILLIAMS offers a more classic wood look and plays great, too. If you want one sooner I don’t think EXCEL would disappoint you.

Ian Rae · Post by **Ian Rae** » 31 Oct 2022 5:39 pm

I have both, and there's little to choose. The Williams is very traditional and the Excel is quite revolutionary. The Williams has a maple cabinet and the Excel is mica on aluminium. Both stay in tune well and have satisfying tone and sustain.

The main difference between mine is that the Williams is 24¼" scale and the Excel is 25½". I didn't ask for that but it does help the bottom strings. On the other hand only certain brands will work on the 3rd string without breaking.

If you want a lot of changes, go for the Excel which has a 7 up 4 down changer as opposed to 3 up 3 down which I find slightly limiting.

They both weigh the same but the Williams has the bulkier case so I gig the Excel.

Bill McCloskey · Post by **Bill McCloskey** » 31 Oct 2022 6:36 pm

Can't speak the differences but I can vouch for Williams customer service. Bill Rudolph is always available by phone or email for a question, at least that is my experience.

Richard Alderson · Post by **Richard Alderson** » 31 Oct 2022 8:50 pm

They are both top notch builders with a proven track record consisting of decades of sales, and hundreds of their guitars out there in the world being played. Either one is a good investment. They are both 'reliable' and known for quality not for problems. Williams has classical wood lacquer designs and beautiful finishes available. Excel is known for its creativity and innovation in mechanical design.

Greg Cutshaw, (a forum member here), documented one of the most detailed comparisons of the features of both guitars on his website, with over 20 photos and comments, as he owned first a beautiful lacquer Williams, and then second an amazing 12 string Excel. He chronicled his examination of both guitars in great detail. You can search for his name here on the Forum for that comparison. But you can't lose either way. Its a good problem to have if those are your two choices.

mtulbert · Post by **mtulbert** » 1 Nov 2022 5:15 am

Just an FYI for the Excel. The guitar is available in a 24 1/4 scale as well. My S-10 is configured that way and it sounds great and the third string change is not an issue due to the shorter scale length. You can't go wrong with either guitar. Both are great.

Justin Shaw · Post by **Justin Shaw** » 1 Nov 2022 6:26 am

Thanks for all the replies I really appreciate it.

I think I might just go whole hog and get a 14 string 25.5" Excel with some custom pickup ideas I've been thinking about.

Lots to think about!

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 1 Nov 2022 6:35 am

I had the same dilemma.

Both brands suited my purpose (at least 3-up/3-down) and, while Excel boasted a much shorter delivery time, I found communications were patchy. I'm aware that this isn't normally the case with Excel, but that was my experience.

I'm having a 12-string keyless Williams tuned to D13th. I ordered it in June so it's not certain how long I'll have to wait. Worst? A year. Best - who knows, but I hear things might be speeding up.

Bill Rudolph has been a pleasure to deal with, indulging my all-too-frequent changes in the setup without complaint (so far!)

From what I've heard, both instruments are excellent but, while I'm not adamant on this point, my guitar will be American-made.

Justin Shaw · Post by **Justin Shaw** » 1 Nov 2022 11:32 am

Roger Rettig wrote:I had the same dilemma.

Both brands suited my purpose (at least 3-up/3-down) and, while Excel boasted a much shorter delivery time, I found communications were patchy. I'm aware that this isn't normally the case with Excel, but that was my experience.

I'm having a 12-string keyless Williams tuned to D13th. I ordered it in June so it's not certain how long I'll have to wait. Worst? A year. Best - who knows, but I hear things might be speeding up.

Bill Rudolph has been a pleasure to deal with, indulging my all-too-frequent changes in the setup without complaint (so far!)

From what I've heard, both instruments are excellent but, while I'm not adamant on this point, my guitar will be American-made.

I totally hear you on this. I'm Canadian and have looked into a bunch of builders here in Canada, but pretty much all have retired from building it looks like. Almost every website, post, and ad I find is for some site that no longer exists. One of the builders is 85, and told me that he might make another one next year. I hope he does and I'd love to buy it.

Steve Mueller · Post by **Steve Mueller** » 1 Nov 2022 8:25 pm

New Williams guitars have a 4 up and 3 down changer. Bill Rudolph's customer service is great. You call and he answers the phone! You need parts and he sends them out immediately. Good luck communicating with Excel. I tried with out any meaningful success.

scott murray · Post by **scott murray** » 1 Nov 2022 9:06 pm

has anyone compared the supposed "cabinet drop" of the 2 brands?

and for what it's worth, I ordered a new Excel last year and had great communication with Mitsuo throughout the entire process.

mtulbert · Post by **mtulbert** » 2 Nov 2022 12:59 pm

Have not compared cabinet drop but I can tell you my S-10 Excel has no pedal drop with the A pedal engaged and -1.5 cents with both A and B.

Mituso is sometimes hard to get ahold of but he always responded to me when I had questions.

You could reach out to Steve Sanford here in the US for support and sales as well.

Hope this helps

Ian Rae · Post by **Ian Rae** » 2 Nov 2022 1:21 pm

Cabinet drop (a convenient term for all the many things that give a little) is negligible on both my instruments.

J D Sauser · Post by **J D Sauser** » 2 Nov 2022 1:56 pm

I own several Excel Superb Keyless PSG and I've had 2 Williams Keyless in my house on several occasions.

As some already commented, these are two very different guitars even when comparing the Keyless models.

At this point, Excels are basically aluminum rail "cabinets" with "some" wood in the neck. The latest model even has a separate "inverted beam" aluminum channel supporting the neck independently from the "cabinet" to completely isolate it from pedal pull down. The changer is an evolution of the Harlin,->PS210,->Anapeg Scissorless approach of which also the new Sierra Co. uses it's own interpretation. 6 raises/4 lowers! All is modular and can be re-setup to a completely different tuning and pedal-lever array without using a drill.
The are also the only ones to currently making single neck guitars with E9th/C6th switch-overs where some pedal also change operation.
In my opinion, especially the generations which started using the POINTED changer-finger (with the "hump") sound quite uniquely different than most any other PSG around, capable of tonal dynamics more similar to a good quality non-pedal steel guitar. To me THAT is very appealing as I don't use a volume pedal anymore.
The Excel looks "modern" or let's say "anything BUT traditional" just like the 90's Sierras did in their time. They are very "machine-like".

The Williams is one of the few KEYLESS guitars which are built quite traditionally with a structural wood cabinet and a "Sho-Bud-Evolution"-Scissor All Pull changer, looking much more "Country" or call it "Traditional" than the Excel. Maybe to some, even looking more "musical".
The main difference, besides being Keyless, is the "string stress reducing" shape of the ball-end string hook up of the changer finger.
The undercarriage is very similar to ZumSTEEL, high quality and traditional.

I think that if anybody is torn between the two brand, one would be well advised to TRY them before putting the foot to far into the door, as they are farther apart than a Lincoln was from a Cadillac in the mid to late 50's.
On the other hand, if you were Buddy Emmons, you would sound like Buddy Emmons on either one. So....

... J-D.

Justin Shaw · Post by **Justin Shaw** » 2 Nov 2022 2:19 pm

Thanks for all the info that's great!

J D Sauser wrote: In my opinion, especially the generations which started using the POINTED changer-finger (with the "hump") sound quite uniquely different than most any other PSG around, capable of tonal dynamics more similar to a good quality non-pedal steel guitar. To me THAT is very appealing as I don't use a volume pedal anymore.
... J-D.

Are the guitars they currently make in this category? Capable of all those tonal dynamics? That's a big plus for me too, having played fingerstyle with lots of dynamics for years.

As far as communication so far they've been very quick to respond to emails.

And I would love to try more pedal steels but there's hardly anywhere to go in Ontario Canada where I live. The one guy who carries pedal steels is on backorder for everything.

J D Sauser · Post by **J D Sauser** » 2 Nov 2022 3:08 pm

Justin Shaw wrote:Thanks for all the info that's great!

J D Sauser wrote: In my opinion, especially the generations which started using the POINTED changer-finger (with the "hump") sound quite uniquely different than most any other PSG around, capable of tonal dynamics more similar to a good quality non-pedal steel guitar. To me THAT is very appealing as I don't use a volume pedal anymore.
... J-D.
Are the guitars they currently make in this category? Capable of all those tonal dynamics? That's a big plus for me too, having played fingerstyle with lots of dynamics for years.

As far as communication so far they've been very quick to respond to emails.

And I would love to try more pedal steels but there's hardly anywhere to go in Ontario Canada where I live. The one guy who carries pedal steels is on backorder for everything.

NO, but it's quite a bit closer. I first really got interested in Excel, because I saw and later heard some of the Hawaiian player use them (yes, the PSG).
The new MSA come fairly close to that too.

Everybody is on Backorder for everything nowadays.

... J-D.

Daniel McKee · Post by **Daniel McKee** » 3 Nov 2022 2:34 pm

If Williams would build a 12 keyless universal with a little bit longer scale than 24 1/4 Id have one ordered today. Its hard to find builders that will do the longer scale.

Justin Shaw · Post by **Justin Shaw** » 3 Nov 2022 3:14 pm

Daniel others have said they've had trouble communicating with Excel, but so far I've had only positive experiences. The 25.5" scale is $100 more which is fine with me. To me the biggest surprise was that their wait time is 45 days, rather than a year or so for Williams. I actually have to put off ordering so I don't put myself in debt haha.

Daniel McKee · Post by **Daniel McKee** » 3 Nov 2022 4:17 pm

45 days. Always heard it was fast but wow!

mtulbert · Post by **mtulbert** » 4 Nov 2022 4:23 am

Mitsuo does deliver his guitars in 45 days from time of final payment. The service he uses to ship the guitars is excellent. Received mine 5 days after it left Japan.

K Maul · Post by **K Maul** » 4 Nov 2022 4:40 am

mtulbert wrote:Mitsuo does deliver his guitars in 45 days from time of final payment. The service he uses to ship the guitars is excellent. Received mine 5 days after it left Japan.

I had the same experience with my S-11. I could not believe how quickly it arrived after Mitsuo’s email that it had been shipped. His build time was very fast as well, especially considering that he made me a custom instrument. He had to make a custom eleven string pickup as well as the changer and head, which were not ten, not twelve, but went to ELEVEN.

Justin Shaw · Post by **Justin Shaw** » 4 Nov 2022 10:27 am

Boy y'all really have my leaning towards Excel at this point. Just need to sell a few things first...

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 4 Nov 2022 10:33 am

I was impressed with his delivery time and the versatility of his changer.

I'd send emails and get no reply and the thought of sending the required $1500 deposit to a source that was sometimes unresponsive tipped towards Williams.

I do realize that my experience with the company was unusual.

Lee Gauthier · Post by **Lee Gauthier** » 4 Nov 2022 12:07 pm

Glad to hear Mitsuo is responsive to emails again. My ordering experience and communication with Fuzzy was great. I think he was extra busy when I ordered because my guitar took ~5 months instead of his standard 3. It was less than 30 days from when he told me he had started building my guitar and when I received it though.

Justin Shaw · Post by **Justin Shaw** » 4 Nov 2022 1:38 pm

Roger Rettig wrote:I was impressed with his delivery time and the versatility of his changer.

I'd send emails and get no reply and the thought of sending the required $1500 deposit to a source that was sometimes unresponsive tipped towards Williams.

I do realize that my experience with the company was unusual.

Yes certainly if I had your experience I'd feel the same