banjo and the pedal steel

Alex Piazza · From: Arkansas, USA

Ive been playing a lot of banjo latley, and have realized that its one of the best warm ups before a pedal steel gig. really gets those fingers loose and confident. I was wondering if anyone had some common pedal steel rolls to practice and use in a band situation. just some simple stuff that might make a typical 1,4,5 sound cool.

Chris LeDrew · From: Canada

Alex,

There are a few banjo licks in the Pedal Steel Anthology if you happen to have it. On the CD that comes with the book, the instructor says in a cool southern drawl: "Bannnjo Rolll", and picks off a few nice ones. I love it.

Another favourite from this course is "souunnds of the dobbrooo". We used to take this CD on the road just to hear the instructor call off the licks.

Alex Piazza · From: Arkansas, USA

hey chris, aside from the topic of the post, do you have any must have instructional videos to recommend, or trade, or that i could buy. if so give me an email.

Adrienne Clasky · From: Florida, USA

Joe Wright's Big Book for pedal steel has a few pages of banjo rolls in it. Basically, these are just regular banjo rolls, with a heavy emphasis on in-out thumb movements rather than backwards and forwards rolls. They sound amazing on the pedal steel. If you pick only strings in the major chord, you can move the bar or hit the pedals and play the I-IV-V chords and if you don't block, you achieve this nice chiming affect.

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

I'd try it, if it didn't make that awful noise.

A. J. Schobert · From: Cincinnati, Ohio,

I remember in winnie winstons book a bar made out of wood can give you a banjo sound I don't know if this true.

Jim Eaton · From: Santa Susana, Ca

The handle of a string winder is a good "banjo sound" bar too.
JE:-)>

Chris LeDrew · From: Canada

Hey Alex,

I found Bruce Bouton's video very useful, and Newman's Right-hand Alpha indispensable. I gave my copy of Newman's away to a forum member, and the Bruce Bouton video is on VHS and slightly wobbly. I learned a lot of licks off that one. These are two I'd recommend. Other than that, I haven't used much video instruction.

Tab/CD-wise, I'm tackling Buddy's "Half-Dozen Shuffles" right now, which I highly recommend. Every tune is an eye-opener, packed full of interesting chords and runs. I enjoyed Herb Steiner's "Shuffles, Ballads and Waltzes" as well. Another little book I liked was Newman's E9 Chord Dictionary. Another indispensable book, IMO. I sold that and some others a while back, after I had thoroughly digested it.

Drop me an email if you want to chat a bit about these courses.

Eddie Cunningham · From: Massachusetts, USA

Years ago I worked with a banjo player, he called it a banjer, and I used to place a steel bar under the third fret,E tuning, to key of G and played the heck out of those banjo tunes !! Later in the nite I used to use a half empty beer bottle as a bar !! Got some "great" sounds!! After I lost that job I went on welfare and became a rich man !! The "Ole Retired Geezer"

Larry Behm · From: Mt Angel, Or 97362

I play a Gold Tone electric banjo on several tunes. I still have my Gibson Mastertone for sale if anyone knows of some one who might be looking for a great sounding banjo.

Larry Behm

Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

Probaly 3/4 of my steel playing is formed right out of various banjo rolls. I don't think/play in terms of scales, I use pockets (or positions) - too many years on guitar, banjo, mando. I find myself playing rolls, not grips. But I don't play "normal" steel.

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

The difference between a pocket and a scale is that pockets don't have names, right?

Darryl Hattenhauer · From: Phoenix, Arizona, USA

Chris,
Please pardon my ignorance, but what is the Pedal Steel Anthology?

Bobby Lee,
For me, the difference between pockets and scales is that my pockets have too little and my scales too much.

Jim,
Ever try playing Kaiser rolls?

y'all,
I learned banjo first (from Tiny Moore--my brush with greatness) and transferred all of those rolls to guitar. Scruggs was my roll model. I even use banjo rolls on mando.

------------------
My initial response was to sue her for defamation of character, but then I realized that I have no character. -- Charles Barkley

Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

Sure pockets have names. I don't know enough of them on steel...and especially with the copedent I use...to be able to use the right names for them, but on 6-string there are many established "pockets" that you can yell out to a player at a jam and he'll drop right in.

They're positions based on combined scales and arpeggios, probably...but most players don't think of it that way, they think just of the pockets...or patterns, if you want to use that term. Certain specific geometric forms based around chord forms more than anything else.

An example (and I'm not that good at describing this, I'm better at demonstrating) would be a "blues box". Tell most guitar players to drop into a G blues box, and they'll work from the 3rd to 6th fret or 3rd to 5th, depending on the string....with bends, slurs, and grace notes just outside...some inside...the "box".

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

But isn't that just the G blues scale at the 3rd fret? Seems to me that a "pocket" is a scale plus a fret number.

This "pocket" stuff is as mysterious as the banjo to me. I don't think that the term even exists in any of my music books.

Chris LeDrew · From: Canada

Darryl,

The proper name is "Anthology of Pedal Steel Guitar", by Dewitt Scott, published by Mel Bay in 1980. It comes with a CD and is packed with licks, runs, song tab, general info, and a bunch of great photos of prominent steel players and their instruments. It's ideal for a beginner but there's also a lot of stuff for intermediate and advanced players as well.

It's no longer in print, I don't think. I got a copy from b0b here on the forum about 2 years ago.

Darryl Hattenhauer · From: Phoenix, Arizona, USA

Thanks, Chris. Just found one on ebay.
Only $5 so far.

------------------
My initial response was to sue her for defamation of character, but then I realized that I have no character. -- Charles Barkley

Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

Bobby - it's aa term used very commonly on guitar forums, in Guitar Player magazine, Guitar World...just common-knowledge stuff. And it's "sort of" scalar, but it's a different thinking. It's a geometric position visualization of the fretboard, rather than a linear one.

If I had a guitar in my hands and a piece of blank paper, we could sit down and I'd have you dialed in on it in 5 minutes. It's the most usual way students are taught as well apart from straight tab, at least those who aren't learning by reading music.

Once you learn to visualize several of these "pockets", they give you quick and easy ways to improvise and a "fall back" position for unfamiliar songs.

I guess most are based on major and minor pentatonics...but again, it's not visualized that way. I played thousands of guitar gigs and could barely play ANY scale on command...some of the "pockets" I initially learned from friends, but Clarence White taught me a couple of ways of "seeing" the fretboard without even holding a guitar while we were talking. It was a revelation...opened things up at warp speed. Through the 70's/80's it became fairly common terminology, and now it's all over the place.

Banjo works the same way - it's 90% position-based...and you learn the same kinds of pockets, then use different rolls to vary the melodic content. Lots of exceptions exist, but basic bluegrass banjo is based on several positions and a mix of rolls. Easy to play on a "fake it" level, really incredibly difficult to play well, as the lack of sustain makes attack THE critical piece of the puzzle.

[This message was edited by Jim Sliff on 17 November 2006 at 05:24 PM.]

Patrick Ickes · From: Upper Lake, CA USA

Hey B0b,
I was in Cloverdale Wednesday evening. If I knew you were so interested in the Pockets of Banjo, I'd of brought mine over and we could have jammed for hours.
I'll call you next time I'm heading your way.

Patrick Ickes

Jeff Lampert · From: queens, new york city

I never really bought into the pocket idea. Say you're playing E9 in the key of G. It is entirely possible over a G chord to work the 1st fret, 3rd fret, 5th fret, 6th fret, 8th fret, 10th fret, 12th fret. And use the other frets for "neighbor" notes. All in a coordinated approach. Where exactly is a "pocket"!? Isn't it better to take the view that the whole fretboard is coherent and you can play across from fret 1 to 12?

------------------
[url=http://www.mightyfinemusic.com/jeff's_jazz.htm]Jeff's Jazz[/url]

Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

"Say you're playing E9 in the key of G."

Jeff, I wasn't talking about steel, so it wouldn't matter - because I have yet to find anyone that knows what I'm talking about in relation to steel, except other former rock or blues guitar players, who mostly seem to know what it means.

Anyway, I was talking about 6-string and banjo. All the steel talk seems to be extended chords and scales, which loses me completely. It's another reason I dumped E9 for the B6 I use - I can locate at least SOME semblance of pockets with that setup - couldn't find anything that made sense on E9, especially with the chromatics thrown in the mix.

"Isn't it better to take the view that the whole fretboard is coherent and you can play across from fret 1 to 12?"

Probably if you know theory, play jazz, or sight read. But to play straightforward country-rock, rock or blues, no. As far as country, I couldn't tell you if it's better or not, as I don't really play it.

Kelly Hydorn · From: Spokane

Hey bOb, they used the "B" word.

Jim Cohen · From: Philadelphia, PA

Jeff asks:

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

I'm a lick, rhythm, and roll based player. I don't ever practice scales, per se. Nor do I tie myself into a "pocket" of 2 or 3 frets and noodle. Every style has its own advantages. A player who practices scales all the time can play great jazz improvisations, but is often terrible on simple backup. A "pocket" player is often great on blues and rockabilly, both lead and backup, but often lost on simple slow stuff that's not blues oriented. A lick, rhythm, and roll-based player like myself is great on general backup and melody playing, but generally lost in jazz and pop stuff that requires lots of chords and scales. Lastly, there's the "chord junkie". This player can amaze you with progressions and voicings, but is often not good at blues and simple single-note melodies.

Ideally, you should learn to play a little of everything well. To become famous, you should specialize in mastering one particular style. I know there's players the will say "so-and-so can play anything, in any style". Well, if there's really someone like that around, I haven't never met or heard him yet.

Nobody can do everything, and do it well.

Forum Index > Pedal Steel		Next oldest topic :: Next newest topic