E9th String breakage question

Brad Malone · Post by **Brad Malone** » 8 Nov 2006 2:39 pm

Donny, I have a Steel where the strings actually go sharp. I broke a string the other day installed another one then got the tuner out and found that all the strings were sharp on both the C6th and E9th necks...my Steel is a great Guitar and seldom breaks strings but I have to make sure I get the tuner out every month or so to correct the true pitch....Maybe this Guitar really wants to be tuned in F9th and C#6th..LOL

Ken Williams · Post by **Ken Williams** » 8 Nov 2006 4:24 pm

I have 74 Emmons and a SKH 86 Emmons. Neither is prone to break an unusual amount of strings. One factor on string breakage may be how often you change strings. If I changed the G# every 2 or 3 weeks, I think I would rarely, if ever, break one. On the other hand, if you're like me and don't change strings like we should, you would be prone to more breakage.
The 74 Emmons I use as a practice guitar, and I really don't practice that much. Last night, I broke down and changed 9 of C6th strings. Some of those strings had been on there for years. For a variety of excuses, I can't hardly bring myself to change the 10th string(low C). I'll bet that thing has been on there for over 10 years.
I'm sure all of you are probably laughing or screaming at me about now.

Maybe if I get a gig at Carnagie Hall or somewhere like that, I'll freshen it up.
On second thought, I think I'm going to "go for it" and change that 10th string tonight.

Ken

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 8 Nov 2006 7:18 pm

Brad, my experience was the same with keyed and keyless Williams guitars. There was no difference - neither of them break strings unexpectedly.

My current Williams is keyless, which is what I prefer. The preference is not related to any string breakage issues. I don't believe that keyless guitars break strings more or less often than the traditional designs.

The worst guitar for string breakage is the keyless Flugelblunker.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b2005.gif" width="78 height="78">Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6) My Blog 
<div style="display:none">[This message was edited by Bobby Lee on 08 November 2006 at 07:20 PM.]

Brad Malone · Post by **Brad Malone** » 8 Nov 2006 7:37 pm

Thanks b0b, I really like the way the changer is made on the Williams and the part about the ball ends not falling into the changer is a big plus. You guys really cleared up an issue that had been on my mind for a long time.

Brad Malone · Post by **Brad Malone** » 8 Nov 2006 7:45 pm

Hey Ken, Don't change that 10th string, haven't you heard, the 10 string is like wine, it gets better with age, change that string and you might ruin your sound...LOL

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 8 Nov 2006 7:54 pm

I have a Steel where the strings actually go sharp. I broke a string the other day installed another one then got the tuner out and found that all the strings were sharp.

Typical. You probably finish your fine-tuning when the guitar's good and warmed up. Then, you break a string, and while you're fooling around looking for a string, your tuner, your string winder, etc., the guitar's cooling down. You install a new string and put the tuner on it...and by golly! It's now sharp!

Always play the guitar for a few minutes before you hook up and turn up your tuner! Also, keep in mind that a tuner will exaggerate a small difference or change that's not really worth worrying about.

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 8 Nov 2006 9:49 pm

b0b, you know in a month this thread will be forgotten...but someone will be doing an eBay search for Flugelblunkers.

Billy Carr · Post by **Billy Carr** » 9 Nov 2006 5:26 pm

Let me rephrase it this way. I change strings once a month whether they need it or not. Use a .012P on the high G#. Saturdays is 3 hours playing time and during the week in my shop is probably about 5 hours a week total. I guess playing time on a set for me is around 30 to 35 hours a month before changing. Thanks.

Ken Williams · Post by **Ken Williams** » 9 Nov 2006 5:56 pm

Brad, I took the plunge and changed that string last night. I thought I could hear taps playing lightly in the distance. I used to play at a club and my steel stayed set up all the time there. My wife worked with us and she would comment "Why don't you wipe the dust off your steel?" I would always tell her that I was afraid I would ruin my tone.

Ken

Brad Malone · Post by **Brad Malone** » 9 Nov 2006 7:04 pm

Ken, I hope that new string won't destroy your great tone..that C6th course you put out was great and I love the tone you got from your Steel

Ernest Cawby · Post by **Ernest Cawby** » 10 Nov 2006 3:53 am

I have 2 Sho Buds a Professional and a Pro 1, the pro 1 never broke a string and they were on the guitar for 5 months, one night the guitar started sounding bad, changed strings, it came back to life. On my D10 the 5th string broke when I first got it back from rebuilding, but has not broke one since, last 5 months. I change strings when they sound different, also I use Jagwires now and never broke one of these. When I used SITS I had to change every 3 weeks, and then they did not break. You could hear a change in the sound just before they broke.

I now have a Carter D10, just a week old will have to wait and see how it works out, it has George Ls on it now but will install Jags when they need changing, or when I break the first string.
I play with soft touch and no speed picking, I am sure this helps with string life, as Larry Danley says, " I play slow cause I cannot play fast". lol

ernie

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 10 Nov 2006 4:21 am

basically a BOGUS argument.

yes, perhaps a design may allow a BIT more life before breakage..

but string breakage comes down to one thing and one thing only..

How much seat time are you putting and and how much pedal action goes along with that.

period.

IF you put a 3rd and 5th string on your steel, and never play it or never press the A or B pedal, it will never break.

conversely, if you sit and Speed Pick off the A and B pedal everyday for hours on end..they will break , just because of the physics involved with the string itself.

This entire breakage conversation is missing all of the unknowns, which are the most important factors.

Bottom line, get a Steel you like, play it, change the 3rd and 5th strings now and then and move on. We're talking two 50 cent strings here...on a $3000 Guitar.

If you DON'T change those two strings every now and then..THEY WILL BREAK..and I can assure you, it will happen at the worst possible moment.

Play the Steel, stop worrying about the string life.

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TPrior
TPrior Steel Guitar Homesite

[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 10 November 2006 at 04:23 AM.]

Mike Ester · Post by **Mike Ester** » 10 Nov 2006 5:34 am

Play the Steel, stop worrying about the string life.

I have to agree with Tony. Just play it, polish it, lube it, and change the strings. Oh, and don't forget to enjoy it.

Curt Langston · Post by **Curt Langston** » 10 Nov 2006 6:18 am

but string breakage comes down to one thing and one thing only..

Yeah.

And scale length.

And angle of overhang.

And burrs on the finger.

And burrs on the keys.

And last but not least:
Length of string from tuning device to changer.(TSL)

Ha............

You knew that was coming!

Brad Malone · Post by **Brad Malone** » 10 Nov 2006 7:21 am

basically a BOGUS argument.
yes, perhaps a design may allow a BIT more life before breakage<<

Tony, you seem conflicted. All I was trying to find out is who had the better design as far as string breakage, when taking into account all the things you mentioned. I really do not think the issue is BOGUS.

Brad Malone · Post by **Brad Malone** » 10 Nov 2006 7:30 am

Hey Ernest, thanks for your reply. I also like Jagwires and another great string is RAY LINE. I had a Ray Line high G# to A (E9th) on my Mullen for over a year (playing time about one hour a day) and I had to remove it because it went dead but the Jagwires are my second choice.

Brad Malone · Post by **Brad Malone** » 10 Nov 2006 7:37 am

Hey Curt, keep it coming..you think like an engineer.

Wayne Baker · Post by **Wayne Baker** » 10 Nov 2006 8:02 am

Not to make this sound like a Hankey post, but one could certainly avoid string breakage with timely string replacement. I recommend weekly string replacement when playing regularly...

Wayne Baker

Brad Malone · Post by **Brad Malone** » 10 Nov 2006 9:01 am

Thanks WB but even changing strings often does not totally solve the problem because you could get a batch strings that have bad steel..the way to solve the problem is to have a changer that places less stress on the strings so they won't break as often..IMHO

P.S. So far three different brands of Steel Guitars were mentioned on this thread that have superior changer designs "as far as string breakage" is concerned.

Erv Niehaus · Post by **Erv Niehaus** » 10 Nov 2006 9:36 am

Brad,
You really need to check out the Williams guitar. Besides the unique changer design, the rest of the guitar isn't bad either.

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 10 Nov 2006 9:54 am

I agree with Tony Prior. In most cases, the guitar's design has nothing to do with string life. It's more a function of how the guitar is played, and what strings you use.

A damaged changer finger or nut roller can cause string breakage. These defects are not part of the design of the guitar. For every person who says that they had a Brand X guitar that broke strings like mad, you'll find another player with the same make and model who never breaks a string. The difference isn't in the design of the guitar - it's in the other variables.

In the past decade I've owned and played 3 Sierras (Olympic, Crown and Session models), a Sho-Bud Baldwin crossover, a Marlen/Speedy West and 2 Williams crossover guitars (keyed and keyless). There has been no difference in string breakage between these very different instruments.

I always use the same brand of strings, and my picking and pedal techniques are fairly constant. My conclusion: string breakage can best be avoided by using good strings and changing them before they wear out. If you do that and are still having a problem, look for a burr on the changer finger or nut roller. Chances are, there's a single defective part to blame, not a defective design.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b2005.gif" width="78 height="78">Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6) My Blog 
<div style="display:none">[This message was edited by b0b on 10 November 2006 at 10:05 AM.][This message was edited by b0b on 10 November 2006 at 10:05 AM.]

Brad Malone · Post by **Brad Malone** » 10 Nov 2006 11:54 am

ERV, Will do, thanks for you replies

Brad Malone · Post by **Brad Malone** » 10 Nov 2006 11:58 am

b0b, thanks for your insight...you could be our quality control deptartment.

Michael Johnstone · Post by **Michael Johnstone** » 10 Nov 2006 10:06 pm

Keyless guitars break strings less often. That's been my experience. I've played Sho-Buds,Emmons,ZBs and a couple MSAs and on all those guitars a 3rd string (.011) would last about 3 nights on a steady 5 set gig and I could count on it breaking about the middle of the 4th gig. When I switched to a 25" keyless Sierra,a 3rd string lasted about 5 or 6 gigs before I started worrying about breakage. When I switched to a 25.5" Excel(also keyless)string breakage dropped to absolute zero.I've been playing that guitar steady since 2002 and apart from two bad strings that broke as I was putting them on,I routinely leave a 3rd string on there for 20 or more gigs and only change it when it goes dead. Why? Like the Anapeg and now I think the Lamar,the Excel changer pulls the strings horizontally instead of cranking them around a rotating cam. Ever notice that strings always break at the crown of the cam? It's called bending a string back and forth till it breaks from metal fatigue. Straight pull changers don't do that and consequently don't break strings. Someday all changers will be built like that. Meanwhile if you want to forget about ever breaking a string on a gig - get an Excel Superb.

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 11 Nov 2006 5:01 am

Ok, Bogus may be a bit over the edge, but the substance is still the same.

If one is attempting to buy a Steel for the purpose of string life you my be off in a Row Boat all by yourself.

There is no way anyone can place an exact gauge on how long a string will last before it breaks, regardless of the brand or changer design, and then apply that concept to each and every player.

I am certain there are players playing Mavericks who never broke a 3rd string..but maybe what they are playing is NOT condusive to breaking strings. And I also know that each of the players playing Emmons, Buds, Zums, Carters, MSA's, Derby's, GFI's,etc..and so on..who are tearing it up... break 3rd strings and maybe 5th strings..and yes even as mentioned above Sierra's..but they know the mechanics of there STEELS and replacing a few strings on schedule is part of the process.It is part of Pedal Steel Guitar life.

My BOGUS argument is NOT that there may be some changers which may offer a better breakage life..it is with the notion that THEY don't break strings at all.

IF someone says they never break a string, then come to my house, practice what I practice everyday and show me.I guarantee ya my Steel gets a workout on the AB peds, 4th ped and verticle knee lever..those 3rd and 5th strings are screaming at me...beging for mercy...everyday...

tension, relieve tension, tension, relieve tension, relieve tension, tension, relieve tension..etc..etc etc. etc...

In addition,the argument implies that each and every string we purchase is rock solid exactly the same as the previous one. every string is perfect.

Some strings break because they are just plain Bad STRINGS..Some last longer because they are very good strings and the wraps are very good.

I would venture to say that there are NO regular working players that are NOT carrying spares because they think they have a Steel that never breaks strings, any brand of Steel.

So, IF you are playing a Steel that gets a bit longer string breakage life you still need to do two things, You need to KNOW what that longer life is and you still have to carry spare strings.

it's kinda like

Do I need to put Gas in the car on the way to the gig or on the way home ?

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TPrior
TPrior Steel Guitar Homesite

[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 11 November 2006 at 05:34 AM.]