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Topic: another C6th question about A string lower |
b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 30 May 2022 4:16 pm |
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I'm thinking of raising the 1st string D to Eb on the same lever that lowers A to Ab. Is there a downside to this?
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 31 May 2022 12:00 am
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It depends what you are going to use it for.
The F7 with strings 234 will now be Fm7.
On the other hand it will still give the melodic 2 note in the 13th chord on strings 235 with P5&6
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Steve Hitsman
From:
Waterloo, IL
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Posted 31 May 2022 5:17 am
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| I have that change on pedal 8. |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 31 May 2022 6:52 am
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| Ian Rae wrote: |
It depends what you are going to use it for.
The F7 with strings 234 will now be Fm7.
On the other hand it will still give the melodic 2 note in the 13th chord on strings 235 with P5&6 |
I think you misunderstood the question, Ian. I have the 4th string A to Ab change, and I'm asking if adding the 1st string raise D to Eb will cause a problem that I'm not seeing.
It seems to me that the Ab C Eb major triad (strings 43_1) might be useful, and the Eb note would certainly be handy in melodic work. The C augmented chord (strings 76_432) is unaffected, as is the lower AmMaj7 (strings 876_4) which I use fairly often.
The added tension on the lever would actually be a plus. Would I lose anything by raising D to Eb on the same lever that lowers A to Ab?
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 1 Jun 2022 12:43 pm
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I agree that if that Ab triad appeals, then fine, although there isn't a shortage of triads. It all depends on repertoire. I play a solo in Love Is A Losing Game where I play a melodic D over an Fm chord using that lever, so I would experience a "downside".
The tradition of putting the 1st string raise on P8 continues to make sense, and I have that on my uni, although I also have it on the lever that raises my 9th string B to D. I think the general principle is that strings 1 and 4 are too close together to avoid unwanted interactions, and it's better to share with something lower down.
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 1 Jun 2022 8:27 pm
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Good point about the Fm chord scale, Ian. I've never used that position. It hadn't ever occurred to me. Do you also lower the low A on that lever? (I don't.)
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 2 Jun 2022 12:48 am
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Yes, to give a full strummable 7b5 chord (actually 9b5 but the convention is not to mention the 9th).
To me the primary purpose of raising and lowering 4 is to alter the 5th in 7th chords (in conjunction with P5).
Minor chords and dominant 7ths have always seemed secondary as there are other ways of achieving those.
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 2 Jun 2022 4:12 am
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You see several players, Buddy being one, that only raise or lower string 4 and not string 8. Not sure I fully understand why.
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 2 Jun 2022 6:52 am
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If you don't lower 8 then with P8 the lever gives you a major 7th. All depends what's more important to the individual.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 2 Jun 2022 7:02 am
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| Richard Sinkler wrote: |
| You see several players, Buddy being one, that only raise or lower string 4 and not string 8. Not sure I fully understand why. |
I use it for the AmMaj7 in ballads (root on 8) more than anything else. Also the F7#9 (p6, root on 9) in blues. Lowering 8 would mess up both of those positions.
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J D Sauser
From:
Wellington, Florida
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Posted 2 Jun 2022 12:14 pm
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| b0b wrote: |
| I'm thinking of raising the 1st string D to Eb on the same lever that lowers A to Ab. Is there a downside to this? |
B0b I "know" that I've toyed with this change every now and then and I tried to find the pedal-lever combination I used to wish for it... and couldn't find it again just yet. I think the few times I have hit that snag, I settled for the fact that it's a pretty equal win-some-loose-some equation.
Unless you've gone PushPull without telling us, I would suggest, "go fer'it", it's not anything you couldn't pull that hex-nut back out if you feel it's got too much "loose-some" attached to it.
I tried the following for verification:
- P6 & Ab and prefer the D on top... but Eb sounds nice, BUT you can get the same sound/chord with the middle-G-to-F drop alone 3 frets higher (Eb on the 3rd string now)... and I find the G-to-F-drop much more polyvalent. IF you don't have that change or can't add it, you MAY prefer that Eb on top of the above combination. But it IS a trade off right there when you play upper-structure chords (what I described in the thread you liked the "theories" so much).
- P8 & Ab: Why not? Which goes to Steve Hitsman's change-choice to the 8th pedal, maybe something to consider.
- P5 & C-to-C#-raise & Ab: Likewise and related to the P8 comb.... Why not?
- P5 & C-to-C#-raise, middle E-to-D full tone drop & Ab: DEFINITELY NO.
- P7 & Ab: DEFINITELY YES... which raises the question "why not add the D-to-Eb-raise to the 7th pedal and eradicate the unison, IF unisons are not your lifeline? I HAD that for a while and found I lost some of the "snappyness" of my 7th pedal.
- P7 & P5 & Ab: I have P7 next to P5 because my P6 is on a lever. But some double feet P7 & P5 often (BE did) it "works" but I I see not much usefulness of the whole combination except annoying the neighbors and getting your wife to pack up and leave voluntarily (which CAN have it's perks!).
IF I come across where I really wished for an D-to-Eb raise, I'll repost. I use a wound o.022 on the middle A... dropping it is a long travel against the return spring! So, for mechanical reasons, I would NOT have that change on THAT lever (besides, it's one of my V-paddles and I might give my self and upper-cut inadvertently, my guitars are fairly light!). I know I HAD it on the P7 and I dropped it for feel a lack of necessity.
| Richard Sinkler wrote: |
| You see several players, Buddy being one, that only raise or lower string 4 and not string 8. Not sure I fully understand why. |
I raise and lower them both, but I often crave the ability to only affect the middle A. It opens up for more complex chords, in other words it creates "asymmetry". Just like the 8th-pedal does NOT raise the top C-to-C# and thus creates, among other uses that #9the (a minor 3rd on top against the M3rd lower octave... bus since the 3rd is absent... it's named after the altered 9th for the basic dominant chord that pedal was initially known for (many more chords result because of that asymmetry:)
When you build upper harmony chords, which invert in minor, major, dominant and half diminished, asymmetry IS of essence. In other words, you do NOT seek to repeat a note you already got... it becomes like sitting Jerry Lee style on ALL White Keys at once... a 7 note chord.
... J-D.
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Was it JFK who said: Ask Not What TAB Can Do For You - Rather Ask Yourself "What Would B.B. King Do?"
A Little Mental Health Warning:
Tablature KILLS SKILLS.
The uses of Tablature is addictive and has been linked to reduced musical fertility.
Those who produce Tablature did never use it.
I say it humorously, but I mean it. |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 2 Jun 2022 12:58 pm
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| b0b wrote: |
| I'm thinking of raising the 1st string D to Eb on the same lever that lowers A to Ab. Is there a downside to this? |
| J D Sauser wrote: |
I tried the following for verification:
- P6 & Ab and prefer the D on top... but Eb sounds nice, BUT you can get the same sound/chord with the middle-G-to-F drop alone 3 frets higher (Eb on the 3rd string now)... and I find the G-to-F-drop much more polyvalent. IF you don't have that change or can't add it, you MAY prefer that Eb on top of the above combination. But it IS a trade off right there when you play upper-structure chords (what I described in the thread you liked the "theories" so much). |
I don't drop my middle G to F
| Quote: |
| - P8 & Ab: Why not? Which goes to Steve Hitsman's change-choice to the 8th pedal, maybe something to consider. |
That's a good one. I just don't want to add more tension to the 8th pedal.
| Quote: |
| - P5 & C-to-C#-raise & Ab: Likewise and related to the P8 comb.... Why not? |
Yep.
| Quote: |
| - P5 & C-to-C#-raise, middle E-to-D full tone drop & Ab: DEFINITELY NO. |
I drop my middle E to D on LKR for E9th effect. It already raises the 1st sting but I've been finding it annoying.
| Quote: |
| - P7 & Ab: DEFINITELY YES... which raises the question "why not add the D-to-Eb-raise to the 7th pedal and eradicate the unison, IF unisons are not your lifeline? I HAD that for a while and found I lost some of the "snappyness" of my 7th pedal. |
I use the unison high D sometimes, but not with the Ab lever.
| Quote: |
| - P7 & P5 & Ab: I have P7 next to P5 because my P6 is on a lever. But some double feet P7 & P5 often (BE did) it "works" but I I see not much usefulness of the whole combination except annoying the neighbors and getting your wife to pack up and leave voluntarily (which CAN have it's perks!). |
I don't use P5 and P7 together, but you're right. The combination that I use to do that has both of my knees occupied, so I can't add an Ab anyway.
My tuning is actually D6th. The LKV2 is going to an inside LKR2 next week, hence the question.
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J D Sauser
From:
Wellington, Florida
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Posted 2 Jun 2022 1:55 pm
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| b0b wrote: |
My tuning is actually D6th. The LKV2 is going to an inside LKR2 next week, hence the question.
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Given that you too have 2 LKV's, there's plenty of room for a "Crawford Cluster" inside (front) LKL. It's my 8th lever (I got an RKV too) and lowers my 7th string C (7th relative to a conventional 10 string setup) half. I sometimes really look for that change in combination with other changes.
I think you got a lot there too and IF you hit a snag, which is unlikely because nobody else seems to have felt the need to pull the STOP sign at your face, you'll find out and re-set accordingly. It's not like you're taking your B-pedal off he E9th tuning or something.
I'd still have it on the 8th pedal. because else, it does not affect the upper strings, so it's unlikely to be in the way.
I got a D on my bottom instead of the usual C. I drop it 5 semitones on P8 and and it's a looong throw on the changer but it has smoothened out P8 and removed that clumsy "staggered" feel many stock P8's have.
I think that pulling D up half wouldn't be so hard on a pedal.
... J-D.
_________________
__________________________________________________________
Was it JFK who said: Ask Not What TAB Can Do For You - Rather Ask Yourself "What Would B.B. King Do?"
A Little Mental Health Warning:
Tablature KILLS SKILLS.
The uses of Tablature is addictive and has been linked to reduced musical fertility.
Those who produce Tablature did never use it.
I say it humorously, but I mean it. |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 10 Jun 2022 11:14 am
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I decided to put the 1st string raise on both the knee lever and the inside pedal, and play that way for a while to see which I like better. Here's what I ended up with:
I'm really enjoying the second LKL, too. I thought it would be hard to adjust to, but it was remarkably easy to move my knee forward to use it.
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J D Sauser
From:
Wellington, Florida
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Posted 11 Jun 2022 1:12 pm
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| b0b wrote: |
I decided to put the 1st string raise on both the knee lever and the inside pedal, and play that way for a while to see which I like better. Here's what I ended up with:
I'm really enjoying the second LKL, too. I thought it would be hard to adjust to, but it was remarkably easy to move my knee forward to use it. |
I am afraid I see a "conflict of interest" with your LKLL and inner LKL2
Raising your D's half on LKL turns you relative minor to open D6th which is Bm7 to Bdom7th (raising the minor thirds to Major, like Jerry Byrd invented on his C6/A7-tuning).
Adding the pedal we call the 5 pedal, lowers that B7's b7th degree to a 6th degree. Some may feel it's redundant to repeat the tuning 3 frets apart, but it's a life saver when it comes to key-changes.
But, I assume you already know that.
ASSUMING that you cannot hit LKLL and inner LKL2 at the same time, what you may have overlooked, is that when you have both changes engaged (your LKL & P3 (aka/ P5) for an open B6th) you will eventually want to be able to add that full tone drop.
This will open a whole new world (aka. "Can Of Worms"). It's like you being able to drop your middle A a full tone (G to F drop on C6th as PF and I believe Doug Jernigan has.) against your D6th which also is Em9th (and that later drop works on both chords (Em6th being the relative minor to the GMaj7 rooted at the 9th string)
It's a game changer away from playing in 3rds and entering in the upper harmonies we discussed a couple of weeks ago.... minor as well as Major 9th, 11th and 13th chords... even as Dominants. The Chord you hear so much in Soul, NeoSoul and much of Soul-Gospel mostly on pianos.
_________________
__________________________________________________________
Was it JFK who said: Ask Not What TAB Can Do For You - Rather Ask Yourself "What Would B.B. King Do?"
A Little Mental Health Warning:
Tablature KILLS SKILLS.
The uses of Tablature is addictive and has been linked to reduced musical fertility.
Those who produce Tablature did never use it.
I say it humorously, but I mean it. |
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Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
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Posted 11 Jun 2022 2:16 pm
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As an aside, my A to Ab lower is on my CKV. I raise the As on RKR and, for symmetry's sake, I wish I'd put the lower on RKL.
(My RKL raises 10 and 6 to D and F respectively. My C raise and lowers are on CKR and CKL.)
I have the 1st string raise to D# on pedal 8; it's conveniently next to my right foot for the occasions I need it.
It's not just for the sake of neatness that I don't like my LKV: it feels counterintuitive to me to push upwards to lower a note.
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Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles, Martins, and a Gibson Super 400!
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Last edited by Roger Rettig on 11 Jun 2022 2:55 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 11 Jun 2022 2:18 pm
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Thanks for the insight, J D. I use LKL+P3 a lot, but I've never felt the need to drop the F# down to E at the same time. I've had the LKL2 change (F# to E) on LKR until now, so I guess I've just avoided opening that "can of worms". 
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J D Sauser
From:
Wellington, Florida
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Posted 12 Jun 2022 7:44 am
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| b0b wrote: |
| Thanks for the insight, J D. I use LKL+P3 a lot, but I've never felt the need to drop the F# down to E at the same time. I've had the LKL2 change (F# to E) on LKR until now, so I guess I've just avoided opening that "can of worms". |
I know... I installed both full tone drops in my setup exploration phase and first felt it was just "boowhooop"-all over again... even E9th'ish... until I changed my grips to wider. I must also admit that I had by then already gone to 3 finger picks + thump... so, I can grab wide "stuff", but there's nothing one couldn't get by doubling up with the thumb or the middle finger.
You say you use the Pedal-Lever comb. a LOT. I do too and once I realized what it did together (because just to have it as a minor-to-dom-7th raise is just not worth the "cost" of a lever (after all, "P8" with "P7" and the C-to-B lower will give you pretty much that dom7th anyways), I put that change on a pedal to the left of the so called P5. I also put the IV-dom change up on a lever to have access to the "P5" and "P7" and also being able to add the old P6 change to it. I use that mix a LOT too, and don't feel that my re-vamp has lost me anything from the standard BE-layout.
I must say, I still do love WesternSwing, more so that Country I have to admit. What some of the Cats laid on tracks backing Hank Thompson still has me tapping my feet, swingin' "gone solid" as Bear Baloo dancin' to King Louie, would put it. But it's not really my specialty for playing, and whom would I play it with? And quiet frankly, I am thru trying to imitate other steelers, even my heroes like Jerry Byrd, Speedy etc.
So my setup is as personal maybe as I try to keep my playing now and I should in no way try to convince anyone to take it up.
But here's one for you B0b...:
Hit your equivalent of P8 and P7 together and engage that LKL2 full tone drop and explore that, pretty quickly you ought to find that Miles Davis "So What" Quartal-Chord in several variations just like The band played it in 59.
On a standard C6th: strings 4, 5, 6 and 8, 9. the top interval between string 4 & 5 is the rounding-off major third interval. Everything else is in perfect 4ths, just like played on the piano.
Even some backing licks Bill Evans did are there with that combination, by moving the grip up one string and the bar down 3 frets.
These are the sounds these full tone drops open up to. You may not believe it, but deep inside you WANT that accessible with the previously discussed changes... it lets you do all these "Fender Rhodes" closed voiced chords and it opens up the neck to play anything almost everywhere.
Welcome to a new Can Of Worms!... J-D.
didn't we change the subject beautifully? 
_________________
__________________________________________________________
Was it JFK who said: Ask Not What TAB Can Do For You - Rather Ask Yourself "What Would B.B. King Do?"
A Little Mental Health Warning:
Tablature KILLS SKILLS.
The uses of Tablature is addictive and has been linked to reduced musical fertility.
Those who produce Tablature did never use it.
I say it humorously, but I mean it. |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 12 Jun 2022 8:16 am
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| Quote: |
| Hit your equivalent of P8 and P7 together and engage that LKL2 full tone drop and explore that, pretty quickly you ought to find that Miles Davis "So What" Quartal-Chord in several variations just like The band played it in 59. |
I hear it. I do use that lever with P7 now and then.
None of my musician friends are jazz players. Some play western swing, so my copedent is slanted in that direction. Also, I strum a lot. Semitones on adjacent strings are to be avoided.
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J D Sauser
From:
Wellington, Florida
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Posted 12 Jun 2022 10:10 am
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| b0b wrote: |
...
.... Some play western swing, so my copedent is slanted in that direction.... Semitones on adjacent strings are to be avoided. |
or else you will be avoided! 
... J-D.
_________________
__________________________________________________________
Was it JFK who said: Ask Not What TAB Can Do For You - Rather Ask Yourself "What Would B.B. King Do?"
A Little Mental Health Warning:
Tablature KILLS SKILLS.
The uses of Tablature is addictive and has been linked to reduced musical fertility.
Those who produce Tablature did never use it.
I say it humorously, but I mean it. |
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