Amplifier Tubes

Bill Duncan · Post by **Bill Duncan** » 24 Apr 2022 10:06 am

The availability of tubes is not looking good. A friend of mine trying to order 6L6's from Sweetwater got a reply from them saying they had none and did not expect any anytime soon.

Tom Gorr · Post by **Tom Gorr** » 24 Apr 2022 10:12 am

They can be found - just not in the conventional go to places - and you can't be fussy on brand.

I have a bunch of used tubes I will be working through until the world goes back to normal.

Bill Ladd · Post by **Bill Ladd** » 24 Apr 2022 10:38 am

Yep, they’re out there, you just have to search.

In the last week, I bought two matched pairs of 6L6s, some 6v6s, a couple rectifier tubes and some preamp tubes.

Bill - tell your friend to do a web search for 6L6 tubes - that’s how I found mine.

Bill A. Moore · Post by **Bill A. Moore** » 24 Apr 2022 12:21 pm

AES shows JJ's in stock!

Bill Hatcher · Post by **Bill Hatcher** » 24 Apr 2022 1:27 pm

Bill A. Moore wrote:AES shows JJ's in stock!

At what prices?

Bill Ladd · Post by **Bill Ladd** » 24 Apr 2022 4:00 pm

Bill Hatcher wrote:
Bill A. Moore wrote:AES shows JJ's in stock!
At what prices?

I don’t know about AES, but I paid normal prices for all the tubes I got recently. No ridiculous price gouging or marking up. I was stoked!

Tom Gorr · Post by **Tom Gorr** » 24 Apr 2022 4:54 pm

Bill Ladd wrote:
Bill Hatcher wrote:
Bill A. Moore wrote:AES shows JJ's in stock!
At what prices?
I don’t know about AES, but I paid normal prices for all the tubes I got recently. No ridiculous price gouging or marking up. I was stoked!

The tube specialty store I (normally) use is 100% higher than my prior order from Dec 2020. Hard pass.

Bill A. Moore · Post by **Bill A. Moore** » 24 Apr 2022 5:21 pm

Everything else has gone up, I didn't quit buying eggs just because they almost doubled in price! Eveybody complains about fuel, but we still need to drive. If I need some tubes, I'll just have to pay what they want.
(JJ's were $56 a matched pair last I looked, about what I paid for Winged "C" maybe 10 years ago.)

Tom Gorr · Post by **Tom Gorr** » 24 Apr 2022 8:10 pm

Bill A. Moore wrote:Everything else has gone up, I didn't quit buying eggs just because they almost doubled in price! Eveybody complains about fuel, but we still need to drive. If I need some tubes, I'll just have to pay what they want.
(JJ's were $56 a matched pair last I looked, about what I paid for Winged "C" maybe 10 years ago.)

I have about 20 matched pairs of various power tubes so I will sit this out until reason prevails.

I also bought a matched quad of my favorite current production tubes and an unmatched quad (for my cathode biased amps) as inventory sagged on Russian tubes. Got them about 30% less than current prices. That should keep me going for a few years.

The only JJ tube I'm interested in is their KT77.

Dave Grafe · Post by **Dave Grafe** » 26 Apr 2022 4:36 am

Western Electric is expanding their production of vacuum tubes here in the USA and wants to hear from you.

https://www.westernelectric.com/300b

Patrick Huey · Post by **Patrick Huey** » 29 Apr 2022 2:52 am

Dave Grafe wrote:Western Electric is expanding their production of vacuum tubes here in the USA and wants to hear from you.

https://www.westernelectric.com/300b

if they decide to produce them they will be significantly higher than the imports everyone is used to getting simply due to the higher production costs here in the US. Labor is way more expensive as well as costs related to operating. We have expenses the import companies don’t…mainly the US much more stringent government regulations and oversight and compliance is not cheap. EPA compliance, OSHA , etc. It all adds up.

Carl Gallagher · Post by **Carl Gallagher** » 29 Apr 2022 4:13 am

Dave Grafe wrote:Western Electric is expanding their production of vacuum tubes here in the USA and wants to hear from you.

https://www.westernelectric.com/300b

Dont see it happening.The reason tube production came to a screeching halt in the USA back in the 70's-early 80's was because of environmental issues.There is a lot of toxic waste involved in the production and it is cost prohibitive to dispose of it. I saw the writing on the wall back then and have been amassing NOS tubes since the mid 80's.

Dave Grafe · Post by **Dave Grafe** » 29 Apr 2022 5:12 am

Dont see it happening.The reason tube production came to a screeching halt in the USA back in the 70's-early 80's was because of environmental issues.There is a lot of toxic waste involved in the production and it is cost prohibitive to dispose of it. I saw the writing on the wall back then and have been amassing NOS tubes since the mid 80's.

Well, it's already happening, and they are expanding their product line in accordance with market research. You don't have to believe it or help drive the effort but Western Electric tubes are and will continue to be better made than the imports, and it is encouraging that they are responding directly to the needs of musicians and amp builders. I for one will happy to pay extra to support the enterprise.

Patrick Huey · Post by **Patrick Huey** » 29 Apr 2022 6:24 am

Dave Grafe wrote:
Dont see it happening.The reason tube production came to a screeching halt in the USA back in the 70's-early 80's was because of environmental issues.There is a lot of toxic waste involved in the production and it is cost prohibitive to dispose of it. I saw the writing on the wall back then and have been amassing NOS tubes since the mid 80's.
Well, it's already happening, and they are expanding their product line in accordance with market research. You don't have to believe it or help drive the effort but Western Electric tubes are and will continue to be better made than the imports, and it is encouraging that they are responding directly to the needs of musicians and amp builders. I for one will happy to pay extra to support the enterprise.

I’m glad to hear they are expanding. I have no issues paying extra for quality, however there will be a lot of complaints once they actually begin selling from people who will bitch and moan about the higher price same as those complaining now about the higher cost of these new Emmons Re-Sounds.
I paid close to $150 a couple weeks ago for four brand new preamp tubes including shipping and when I posted that on a Facebook group it was amazing the number of guys who replied “OMG $175 for preamp tubes you got SCREWED!!” “I’ve never paid $30 a piece for tubes you got SHAFTED!” blah blah
Uhhm no actually considering the current market $30 each brand new is fairly reasonable for 12ax7’s.

Carl Gallagher · Post by **Carl Gallagher** » 29 Apr 2022 8:34 am

Dave Grafe wrote:
Dont see it happening.The reason tube production came to a screeching halt in the USA back in the 70's-early 80's was because of environmental issues.There is a lot of toxic waste involved in the production and it is cost prohibitive to dispose of it. I saw the writing on the wall back then and have been amassing NOS tubes since the mid 80's.
Well, it's already happening, and they are expanding their product line in accordance with market research. You don't have to believe it or help drive the effort but Western Electric tubes are and will continue to be better made than the imports, and it is encouraging that they are responding directly to the needs of musicians and amp builders. I for one will happy to pay extra to support the enterprise.

Big question I have is if this is the same "USA production" that was touted by Groove Tubes a few years ago.GT announced that they were re issuing RCA Blackplates made in the USA.Turned out they came into some newly found machinery and components for the tubes and sent it all to eastern Europe someplace to do the actual manufacturing.

Dave Grafe · Post by **Dave Grafe** » 29 Apr 2022 9:26 am

Carl Gallagher please follow the link furnished above and the truth shall set you free of such doubts. Western Electric is already doing it here and committed to maintaining USA production over the long term. Support for their effort is indicated if their success is important to you.

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 29 Apr 2022 11:03 am

I sincerely hope Western Electric can bring in some new guitar-oriented audio tubes with the same type of quality as good NOS tubes at a price that is remotely competitive. I'm willing to pay reasonable prices - significantly more than what people are getting for (IMO, sub-standard) import tubes - for really good tubes. Especially power tubes, where poor tubes can literally take out transformers and other critical and hard-to-replace components. Mostly, I have refused to budge from good US/European-made NOS tubes or good pulls. But I think there is significant price elasticity of demand in the guitar tube market - most players are fairly sensitive to the price.

Right now, they do 300Bs for serious audiophiles at $1499 for a matched pair. I don't know any guitar players that can or will pay that kind of money for guitar tubes. If they just wanna gear to the 'rock star' market, that's one thing. But if they want to scale up to meet demand of a larger market, I think those kinds of prices will be prohibitive. I don't think most players are going to pay way more for the tubes than they do for their amp if there is any other reasonable alternative. A lot of players have gotten used to the import tubes, and if they're available, they'll continue to use them if everything else is priced out of their reach.

Tim Marcus · Post by **Tim Marcus** » 29 Apr 2022 11:47 am

its because Sweetwater pulled their entire tube inventory and re-directed it to their suppliers of tube amplifiers so that they can continue to sell them. Makes sense. I was able to get some from them because they sell one of my models but I actually declined and cancelled that order because there is still an abundance of tubes.

The tube shortage was mostly just a panic caused by retail customers buying all of the retail tubes a few weeks ago. More are being produced and the shelves are starting to fill back up again. Its the same thing that happened with toilet paper back in 2020. Most tubes are sold wholesale not retail - just like toilet paper was - now the retail tubes are gone but they will be back soon at music stores and everyone who paid 2x the price during the panic will probably feel great about that panic based decision.

Regarding Western Electric - they have invested in some tooling from what I understand and can easily adapt one of their designs to the 12AX7 pinout. However in my opinion the market is going to force their hand. We are too used to $20 12AX7s (or less) its going to be hard to adapt to a $120 tube even for the made in the USA diehards. Hard to compete with the factories abroad that make good 12AX7s day in and day out and sell them at 1/5 the price retail.

We are also down a factory in China (closed since 2019) but that factory is coming back online next year. That means Ruby and TAD will have their factory back and not have to rely on JJ anymore. I think in about 6-7 months we will have an abundance of tubes and prices will probably float back down again on the retail side.

The hi-fi 300B crowd is in a different universe than the guitar amplifier crowd. I am cheering for Western Electric but not very optimistic about US made tubes.

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 29 Apr 2022 12:33 pm

I do agree that panic buying is a major issue in the guitar biz. I don't think there's any reason to panic. With 8.5 billion people in the world, any supply vacuum will be filled in time. But it's good to have a reasonable supply of backups in the meantime.

As far as import tubes go, I think 12Axx type tubes are one thing. With these, the main issue is "Does one like the sound?". I like some newer-production 12AX7s. For example, the 1990s Chinese Beijing plant 12AX7s tubes that Ruby and others were selling back then sound great to me. Obviously, a matter of taste, but I haven't had any import 12Axx type tubes blow up on me.

My big issue has been with power and rectifier tubes. I have had major issues running certain old tube amps with some of these. Old blackface/silverface Fenders, Ampegs, and so on push these tubes pretty hard - well beyond the tube design centers. These amps worked fine with old US-made tubes, but have failed on me and people I personally know with some of these newer import tubes. Shorted or prematurely failing tubes, tubes unable to handle the high plate voltages, taking out transformers, and so on. I have had to be real careful selecting newer power tubes.

So I really will welcome some good US-made tubes if the prices are not crazy.

Carl Gallagher · Post by **Carl Gallagher** » 29 Apr 2022 2:59 pm

Dave Grafe wrote:Carl Gallagher please follow the link furnished above and the truth shall set you free of such doubts. Western Electric is already doing it here and committed to maintaining USA production over the long term. Support for their effort is indicated if their success is important to you.

I read it.The only reference I see to any "manufacturing" says "assembly".If they are manufactured entirely in this country they are paying a fortune to do so.The toxic chemicals used in manufacture were outlawed in the late 70's and production stopped here in the early 80's because of that.Whatever they are doing in Ga is a very small, limited quantity and disposing of the waste is prohibitive costwise.1500 bucks a pair? No guitar player will pay that kind of money for a pair of tubes. I dont believe it will go any further, they would never be able to sell enough 300 dollar 12AX7's to stay afloat.That link reads pretty much the same as the GT hype about RCA Blackplate reissues.Its kind of like modern day Harley Davidson.The parts are all produced offshore but assembled here so they can legally say "made in America". I guess its good to have hope, but I dont have a lot of faith in any appreciable manufacturing returning to this country,thats why I started hoarding back in the mid 80's and I now have a LOT of tubes.Support for their efforts? How many 300B's have you bought to support their effort?

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 30 Apr 2022 1:19 am

Ready to be flamed. I stopped purchasing matched sets many years ago. Tube sets are indeed matched when you plug them in but after many hours of use and heat, they are not matched anymore. The only entity that even knows about matched set power tubes is the amp. I am one who says YOUR EARS have no clue if the amp is running at 100% efficiency or 97% efficiency.

I have a box full of 6L6's and 12AX7's, some older, some newer. Even the older ones which I pulled years back aren't much different than the newer ones . I have found the most noticeable difference that my ears can detect are with the front end tubes, the 12AX7's. One amp may like one, another may NOT like the same tube .

They are not perfect and neither am I. I still miss notes and sometimes I'm not in perfect tune

Yet, the amp still works just fine !

Bill Duncan · Post by **Bill Duncan** » 30 Apr 2022 5:17 am

I am with Tony Prior, especially the missed notes part. Heck, I even believe my old Session 400 sounds better anyway. The Session 400 comment is my opinion only and remember, there is no accounting for taste.

Bill Hatcher · Post by **Bill Hatcher** » 1 May 2022 7:28 pm

have a friend who plays with a major artist and i mean major. he says he hasnt played through a tube amp in years. uses one of those modeling things. i was looking for a lightweight amp to play solo guitar singles. i ended up with roland cube amps.....there have been times in the last 55+ years where i might have 20 fender tube amps around, but the roland suits those solo gigs just fine.

the future of tube amps is for sure in question. they will always be around, but if the tubes start to become very expensive, a certain % of players will opt for non tube stuff. with the advent of larger/louder amps not being in vogue right now, i would bet on even more non tube amps being the norm. something else to think about and to me it was mind blowing.....there are actually players entering the fray these days who dont even own a guitar amp. they plug in directly to the computer and model guitar sounds there. i have enough tube pulls from decades of fender amp repair i used to do to last me till the end of my playing days. here is my amp for a musical i am working the next three weeks. trusty 1965 bandmaster. all inputs used...acoustic, electric, resonator, and a harmonica mic. always gets a good and plenty of level.

Bill Sinclair · Post by **Bill Sinclair** » 2 May 2022 5:41 am

Bill, your Bandmaster reminds me of my high school garage band days when we couldn't afford a PA and were trying to run our vocals through our guitar amps. I don't think we ever tried to use four different instruments in a two channel amp though! Impressive. I like the old EV harmonica mic, by the way.

Bill Hatcher · Post by **Bill Hatcher** » 2 May 2022 5:53 am

Bill Sinclair wrote:Bill, your Bandmaster reminds me of my high school garage band days when we couldn't afford a PA and were trying to run our vocals through our guitar amps. I don't think we ever tried to use four different instruments in a two channel amp though! Impressive. I like the old EV harmonica mic, by the way.

Ev 636 I think. It was in a box o junk in the shop, so I started using it for a harp mic since it has a small head on it. Back in the day it was used by zillions of live tv news folks. Mic is indestructible.

My first new fender amp I bought in 1965 was a fender bandmaster. I found this one in a recording studio sale for $125 maybe 15 years ago. I use it a lot.

In regards to guitar amps for pa…back in the 60s I worked with a singer who had a fender 3-10 tweed bandmaster. He sat the amp right in front of him on the floor and plugged a mic in. Sound went out the front and enough out the back acted like a monitor for him.