Limiter pedal for steel guitar being mic'd

Al Evans · Post by **Al Evans** » 29 Apr 2022 6:09 am

Dave Mudgett wrote: Now, I agree with the other comments that you should not be having to do the sound guys' jobs for them. If they know what they're doing, they should be able to set the board up so your XLR line out signal doesn't overload the board at your highest input level. But I suppose if they have a real cheap board that doesn't have a Mic/Line level switch, a choice of Mic/Line level inputs, a signal pad, or a trim pot, then you may have to do something to cut your signal level down.

I just took a look at the Behringer X32 board, and I'd say the sound guys definitely don't know what they're doing. I think some guys have a problem with digital boards. On this one, it looks like there's one set of channel-strip controls -- you've got to select the channel you're working on. But there's definitely a gain knob, and a nice little meter to show you where you should set it for that channel. There's per-channel gating and compression too, looks like.

--Al Evans

Dennis Detweiler · Post by **Dennis Detweiler** » 29 Apr 2022 6:32 am

Yes, sound man needs to know his equipment and do his job. Always at the mercy of the sound man and his controls of tone and balance. It's a simple solution and not your fault.

ajm · Post by **ajm** » 29 Apr 2022 7:17 am

The way I see it.............

Wiz should set up his gear (guitar, effects, amp, etc) and give a maximum volume to the sound guys that they will ever be seeing.
Then, for the rest of the night, don't touch it unless you notify them first.

After that, it's their problem.
It doesn't matter if they mic the amp, use the DI out, use a DI box.....whatever.

Wiz's job is to provide a consistent stage sound and a max level to the sound guys.
The sound guys' job is to massage it and amplify it for the rest of the world.

Using a compressor/limiter at the guitar/amp is not a foolproof solution.
Using an extreme example...........
You could compress/limit the snot out of the signal so that the volume level coming out of the amp has no dynamic range whatsoever, with every note you play at the same volume.
So the sound guy then sets everything up so it's all peachy.
But if at some point you then increase the volume of the amp, you're going to overload the signal going to the board.
So the sound guys' compressor/limiter solution is now a thing of the past.

Matthew Walton · Post by **Matthew Walton** » 29 Apr 2022 9:11 am

Wiz, I think what you need for lining out is an XLR attenuator.

When I started using my Nashville 112, I also used the line out because hey, it's there for a reason, right? And like you, I was constantly dealing with distortion. In hindsight, I suspect it's because we were plugging a line signal into a mic input, like many here have pointed out.

The solution for this that we came to was the attenuator. I don't remember the attenuation level we used, but you can switch around and see what works best. If you want to stick with lining out, this is probably the easiest solution, and one that won't require twiddling more knobs.

Wiz Feinberg wrote:Previously, he threw a mic over the amp. I never had an overload problem that I recall. Once he saw the XLR output he preferred the direct output to avoid picking up extraneous sound. Perhaps using the low gain input will smooth things over.

I may have missed this, but have you heard the tone of your steel through the mains when you're lined out? I lined out for a long time until I actually heard the tone.

It just sounded way too "spanky" for me, at least when playing my Strat though it. Of course if you get a tone you like that way, go for it!

To me, the best and most accurate tone comes from hanging a Sennheiser e906 over the speaker; about halfway between the seam of the coil cover and the edge of the speaker (though a lot of folks like to do right over that seam). Just wrap it through the handle, hang it, and call it a day.

Of course probably the biggest downside to micing--other than picking up other sound that IME is negligible/overpowered by the amp volume--is that you won't be able to adjust your personal stage volume without affecting FOH and everyone else's monitors.

Actually, instead of wrapping around the handle, form a loop in the wire and shove that under the handle. Then take the mic end of the cable, go over the top of the handle, and pass that end down through the loop. Plug in the mic, and you're good to go. I'm not near my amp right now, but I will try to remember to take a picture later.

This whole process takes maybe an extra 30 seconds more than plugging into the line out. Okay, maybe a little longer once you factor getting the mic out of the bag.

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 29 Apr 2022 9:53 am

I missed the ID of the Behringer X32 board. Umm ... yeah - if they have anything like that, then they obviously have everything available to trim any level Wiz is throwing at them - that is IF they know how to use the board.

This is not a given - we did a show at a major fair last year - lots of major acts play there - and the 'sound guy' on the secondary stage didn't know how to work the digital board. He went to make a change, the whole system crashed, and we had to wait over an hour past the start time to go on while they had to rustle up someone who knew how to work the board. I'm not making this up.

Anyway, digital boards are different from the old-school analog boards, and users need to read the manual, which is available online, and is reasonable at 75 pages. It clearly explains how to set up the XLR inputs on page 29. Each channel has a pre-gain, EQ, fader post-gain, compression, and more. On page 68, you can see that the maximum input level before clipping for the XLR input is +23 dBu, so there is plenty of headroom in the preamps to handle the XLR line out of a Nashville 112, which is nominally -3.1dBV = (-3.1 + 2.21)dBu or around -0.9dbu.

Wiz, I think what you need for lining out is an XLR attenuator.

That's a 'pad', as I mentioned earlier. But really - if this is a Behringer X-32 board, that should not be necessary. 24 dB is a TON of headroom if the channel is set up properly.

Al Evans · Post by **Al Evans** » 29 Apr 2022 10:14 am

Dave Mudgett wrote:I missed the ID of the Behringer X32 board. Umm ... yeah - if they have anything like that, then they obviously have everything available to trim any level Wiz is throwing at them - that is IF they know how to use the board.

At the risk of looking like a guy who's avoiding any useful activity, the Behringer X32 manual says it has a non-clip max input level on the XLR inputs of +23 dBu. This works out to something like an input level of 11 V RMS without clipping. The nominal XLR line output level of a Peavey N112 is -3.1 dBV, which is about 0.7 V RMS.

My next question would be how the hell are they getting it to clip???

--Al Evans

Craig A Davidson · Post by **Craig A Davidson** » 29 Apr 2022 11:22 am

I would put most of this on the sound guy who has no idea how to set a steel guitar. I have yet to meet one that knows what they are doing. They tell you that you're too loud yet nobody can hear you out front. I would plug in my rig, tune up, and then tell the sound man it's his baby. He has thousands of dollars of gear. he should be able to figure it out.

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 30 Apr 2022 1:08 am

guys , remember , Wiz is asking for idea's on how HE can control the situation. We all know the sound guy or gal should be able to deal with it, I think he already knows this.

Regarding who's problem it is, yes in a perfect world its the sound guys problem but we don't live in a perfect world and there are not many good sound guys or gals who actually know what it is they are doing, other than running faders up and down.

I dare say that there are very few LOCAL sound guys/gals who have any experience with Steel guitars to begin with. Steel guitars and volume pedals are an entity all by themselves.

Wiz is asking how he can control the scenario on his end, which is what I would do, and do . I carry a Keeley Compressor in the gig bag.

Peace !

K Maul · Post by **K Maul** » 30 Apr 2022 4:19 am

Is Wiz even still reading all this? This has been quite a flood of info. He already said he’s “sorry he asked”.

Fred Treece · Post by **Fred Treece** » 30 Apr 2022 7:34 am

Along with the sound guy rant-a-thon have been a number of excellent suggestions on how to deal with the problem. If anyone is still reading this thread, it’s probably for their own amusement, as is the case with me....

It would be nice to know which of the suggestions were tried and how they worked out.

Wiz Feinberg · Post by **Wiz Feinberg** » 30 Apr 2022 7:56 am

Tony Prior wrote:guys , remember , Wiz is asking for idea's on how HE can control the situation. We all know the sound guy or gal should be able to deal with it, I think he already knows this.

Wiz is asking how he can control the scenario on his end, which is what I would do, and do . I carry a Keeley Compressor in the gig bag.

That is exactly what I was asking. I have been discussing options with the sound man in text messages. I shared many of the suggestions members have given me in this topic.

I am getting notifications about replies and read each one.

Thanks to everybody for your input.

NB: My sound man asked if my volume pedal is active or passive. It is active and I turned the gain trim pot all the way up years ago. This might possibly have something to do with how hot my signal gets at times. I did this to improve the signal to noise ratio in the studio. I am looking at newer pedals, like the Goodrich Omni, which can be active or passive, or their 10k pot model with a buffer. I don't need a buffer because I almost always run from the pickup to my Bobro pedal.

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 30 Apr 2022 8:26 am

A bunch of different approaches to self-control this have been given:

1. Use XLR Line out, which is post pre-gain and EQ, but pre Master Volume. Master Volume all the way up, control overall volume with pre-gain, and if that isn't enough, use Low-Gain input. If you have to resort to Low-Gain input, you'll probably need a buffer to avoid serious treble loss.

2. Pad the XLR Line out signal with attenuator. The attenuator Matt linked looks fine.

3. DI before the amp and send that signal to the to the amp and board. My concern is that you will have absolutely no control of the FOH sound at all.

4. Go back to mic'ing the amp.

5. Use a compressor/limiter like the Keeley GC-2, which makes the limiting process easy. It can also act as a regular compressor, but the advantage is that it makes setting the limiting threshold so easy and intuitive. I'd prefer a limiter right before I send to the house, but I expect that line-level signal would overload a pedal like this. Better to do that with a rack-mount limiter that handles line-level signals.

I still have concern that no matter what is done, if the sound guys don't know how to properly set levels and can't keep things from distorting with 24dB of headroom on the board, any of these methods may fail.

Just saw Wiz' latest reply. Yup, the BoBro should handle any buffering - Boss pedals (on which the BoBro is based) are buffered bypass. And yes - just turning down active volume pedal gain might help if reducing the Pre-Gain with the High-Gain input doesn't lower your signal level enough without practically shutting it off. I use a passive pedal, so I never think about the active VP situation.

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 1 May 2022 1:13 am

Dave Mudgett wrote: I still have concern that no matter what is done, if the sound guys don't know how to properly set levels

LOL !

I played a big stage show on Dobro not long ago, the Dobro was going thru a Direct Box to the board. Sound check it was fine. During the show there was barely any Dobro in the mains or monitors. I asked the sound guys, "whats up " ? They said I changed something. I replied, like what , its a Dobro and a Direct Box , I have NO KNOBS "

Mike Holder · Post by **Mike Holder** » 3 May 2022 7:15 am

Wiz; Some soundmen don't realize how steel guitarists need the headroom on their volume pedals for sustain etc. they tend to want to know what the loudest point of volume will be, especially if they don't work with you often or in that musical idiom.
Mic your amp if you can or an XLR straight out of your amp or a D.I. Box out of your pre amp out should be more than sufficient for them to start with at which point they can adjust the input signal on their end or pad it if need be. Putting a compressor on yourself will just choke your tone unless it's a really good one of studio quality, the guitar pedals won't do the job a lot of this really is on them.

Wiz Feinberg · Post by **Wiz Feinberg** » 3 May 2022 4:46 pm

Mike Holder wrote:Wiz; Some soundmen don't realize how steel guitarists need the headroom on their volume pedals for sustain etc. they tend to want to know what the loudest point of volume will be...

That's exactly what he asks me. I try to explain that I will break glasses and chandeliers if I play at full volume. That's why I mentioned a limiter. It probably won't happen. But, if it does it will be a good one that only limits at peak volume.

If I didn't use my effects loop, the volume would always be the same at any given volume pedal position, while I pick the strings. However, because I loop through the first stage and back to my effects jacks, the volume at the XLR varies with the input gain setting. Some gigs get really loud and I have trouble hearing my amp unless I push harder on the vp. That's when shit happens.

Mike Holder · Post by **Mike Holder** » 3 May 2022 4:53 pm

I would insist he mic it with a Shure SM-57 or Senhiesser 421 and refuse any direct line monitoring, he can control the mic easier and you’ll be better served. All that aside I hope things are going well for you, I still have the guitar strap you made me and value it very much..!

Wiz Feinberg · Post by **Wiz Feinberg** » 3 May 2022 6:37 pm

Mike Holder wrote:I would insist he mic it with a Shure SM-57 or Senhiesser 421 and refuse any direct line monitoring, he can control the mic easier and you’ll be better served. All that aside I hope things are going well for you, I still have the guitar strap you made me and value it very much..!

I have a couple of SM58s they can use. That's what they do when I bring my N400.

I've been playing about as much as I can handle, with 3 or 4 bands. Unfortunately, it's not the kind of Country Music we used to play. But, I do have Sand In My Boots!

Glad you still like and use the strap!

PS: I got another Emmons; an SD-10 Legrande III. It has 4p and 6k. It is about 15 pounds lighter than my D10 push pull.

Mike Holder · Post by **Mike Holder** » 3 May 2022 6:43 pm

The 58 will work fine but the reason I suggested the other 2 was they are unidirectional and won’t pickup from the sides as the 58 is omnidirectional and will.
Glad you’re still playing, I ended up where I started off back with MSA. Best of luck with your gigs!

James Murphy · Post by **James Murphy** » 3 Jun 2022 5:39 pm

I always liked the dbx rack mount compressor. While I’m new to pedal steel, I used the dbx many gigs on the kick drum mic. It has a great limiter functionality.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 4 Jun 2022 3:40 am

Wiz Feinberg wrote: NB: My sound man asked if my volume pedal is active or passive. It is active and I turned the gain trim pot all the way up years ago. This might possibly have something to do with how hot my signal gets at times.

Uhhh, yeah...that might be your problem!

I did this to improve the signal to noise ratio in the studio.

Sorry, instrument gain is not the right way to tackle noise. You must find the noise source, and then work on that to fix the problem.

David Michael Clark · Post by **David Michael Clark** » 6 Jun 2022 11:04 am

Lots of cooks in this kitchen but I though I heard someone ask for more salt..

Wiz Feinberg wrote:
Mike Holder wrote:I would insist he mic it with a Shure SM-57 or Senhiesser 421 and refuse any direct line monitoring, he can control the mic easier and you’ll be better served. All that aside I hope things are going well for you.
I have a couple of SM58s they can use. That's what they do when I bring my N400.

I've been playing about as much as I can handle, with 3 or 4 bands. Unfortunately, it's not the kind of Country Music we used to play. But, I do have Sand In My Boots!.

That was an interesting read all in all.. it looks like you’ve gotten a lot of good advice on this subject and quite a few solutions and hopefully simple fixes for your issue. Being a sound tech myself, I can’t agree more with the folks that say it’s their problem and job, ( I won’t go too far into that ) Using the DI, going back to a microphone.. both sound better than the line out issue. If you were on my stage and had this issue, I’d put a DI after your pedals, then mic the amp close, go to the desk, ask you to give me some loud, put a lil compression on both signals and make a blend for the house. If I was running monitors from FOH I’d send you more DI for the base of the mix and add the mic signal for tonality. If your volume needed to go up, or you seemed louder ( or softer ) in the live mix, then I would adjust accordingly.. but then again when I’m mixing, I pay attention.

You mentioned you play in a few bands, is it the same sound person every time? If not, does this “ problem “ come up at other gigs or is it fine except for gigs with this person that uses the fully capable of handling the problem X32? It’s commendable that you are working with the person on the issue in a calm professional manner.

I may have read wrong, but do you put your volume pedal through the effects loop? If so, I must ask why. I would think that would create more problems of this nature.

BTW. I’d ask for two lines ( a splitter ) or the mic and DI set up if I was running my own IEM or earbuds in any situation, or.. if you have a smaller practice amp you could split your signal and have a baby monitor for yourself only.

You’ve gotten a lot of good advice from the folks here Mr Feinberg, if anything I’ve enjoyed reading it and appreciate the respect this PSG forum shows. Hope you get to a workable solution soon.

Fred Treece · Post by **Fred Treece** » 6 Jun 2022 8:28 pm

do you put your volume pedal through the effects loop? If so, I must ask why. I would think that would create more problems of this nature.

I am curious as to what others might have to say about this, but I believe that the problem with a volume pedal in a post-gain loop is that the line out carries the full-gain signal before it hits the loop, thus nullifying any VP nuance. If there is any dirt at all in your gain setting, it will all come through the line out.

Wiz Feinberg · Post by **Wiz Feinberg** » 6 Jun 2022 9:29 pm

David Michael Clark wrote:Lots of cooks in this kitchen but I though I heard someone ask for more salt..

... If you were on my stage and had this issue, I’d put a DI after your pedals, then mic the amp close, go to the desk, ask you to give me some loud, put a lil compression on both signals and make a blend for the house. If I was running monitors from FOH I’d send you more DI for the base of the mix and add the mic signal for tonality. If your volume needed to go up, or you seemed louder ( or softer ) in the live mix, then I would adjust accordingly.. but then again when I’m mixing, I pay attention.

I'd be much happier if you were my sound tech on these gigs!

David Michael Clark wrote: You mentioned you play in a few bands, is it the same sound person every time? If not, does this “ problem “ come up at other gigs or is it fine except for gigs with this person that uses the fully capable of handling the problem X32? It’s commendable that you are working with the person on the issue in a calm professional manner.

This particular issue is with one soundman that specifically handles one of the bands I play for. Other bands have different techs and sometimes, different boards. While I have been told I occasionally get too loud, nobody else claims I distorted or clipped the input channel.

David Michael Clark wrote: I may have read wrong, but do you put your volume pedal through the effects loop? If so, I must ask why. I would think that would create more problems of this nature.

No. My volume pedal goes directly to the amp input. The signal in the speaker is perfectly clean. The floor effects are in the pre-eq effects loop. This cuts down on hiss and any clock noise from the delay and reverb pedals. My sound in the speaker is never distorted unless I plug in and activate my Bosstone fuzz unit. They have two crunch guitar players in the band. This particular unit is a new Country act going places fast.

David Michael Clark wrote: BTW. I’d ask for two lines ( a splitter ) or the mic and DI set up if I was running my own IEM or earbuds in any situation, or.. if you have a smaller practice amp you could split your signal and have a baby monitor for yourself only.

I am at the mercy of what gear they have on hand. I begged for a wedge, but they declined. The IEMs hurt my ear drums and the signal to them drops out when I lower the volume pot on the receiver to a comfortable level. I may have to invest in my own IEM receiver and perhaps higher end in ears.

Another major act I play for provides floor wedges and I can control my mix with the X32 app. Unfortunately, my last gig with them required IEMs. We tried a tethered box to no avail. Then, I was given a receiver, but all I could hear was the the artist's vocals and bleed through from the drums, bass and lead guitar amp closest to me. I couldn't even hear my own amp until I took out one ear monitor. Sigh.

Wiz Feinberg · Post by **Wiz Feinberg** » 19 Jun 2022 6:46 pm

Apparently, the problem has been resolved. The band got a different sound man on a side gig I was hired to play on short notice. When he asked if I had a DI, I told him the amp has a line level XLR jack on the back. I warned him it could easily hit 1 volt. He said, "no problem!" He meant it. I played Saturday night June 18, at my regular stage volume, without a single complaint. He had me in the mix and there was no overload on the input. Problem solved!