Limiter pedal for steel guitar being mic'd

[Wiz Feinberg]

I know about compressors and have played through them in the past. I don't anymore. However, I play in a couple of large acts that are using digital boards and have occasional complaints from the engineers about me overdriving the input channel on the mixer when I play too loud. This can be destructive to the electronics. It has been suggested that I look into a limiter pedal after my volume pedal.

Can anybody in a similar situation recommend a low noise limiter that stays out of action until I hit a certain peak volume on my volume pedal? Then it should brickwall at that volume. No pumping or compression until that point so my volume pedal action stays normal. No further increase in volume after hitting the peak.

They usually take a direct out from my Nashville 112 to the digital mixer.

[Ian Rae]

Not your problem. It's up to those "engineers" to handle the signal at their end. There is no way that your DI output can be too hot if they know how to operate their board, digital or not

[Fred Treece]

I agree with Ian. Sounds like an input gain adjustment issue at the mixer end that should be taken care of at sound check. Plus, it’s a digital board with no built-in limiter? Should be able to just slap one on your channel, if that’s what the engineer (term used loosely here) wants.

[Dennis Detweiler]

Yes, as Ian and Fred replied. The board has gain and slider controls. Probably compression control on each channel. If not, they need a better board.

[Wiz Feinberg]

I am sorry I asked this on here.

[Ian Rae]

Don't be sorry, Wiz. We'd hate you to be given the runaround by idiots.

[Wiz Feinberg]

Seriously, does anybody use a limiter between the volume pedal and amp to prevent clipping the board? I need a recommendation for one to keep the peace with the sound man. There isn't a limiter on the mixer inputs, just afterward.

[Fred Treece]

You could use a Boss compressor as a limiter after your VP. Work with setting the attack to allow for dynamics, and adjust the threshold to suit your sound guy. The sustain might sound a little odd when you reach the threshold level and keep pumping the VP, but who knows maybe you’ll like it.

Really, you just want a maximum volume for your volume pedal. Seems a little redundant, because what is VP’s job, after all. But maybe it is more convenient to fiddle with pedal knobs than going back and forth to your amp volume controls.

[John Ducsai]

Are you plugged in to the hi gain or low gain input on the amp ? There's 10db difference there.

The XLR out on the back of the amp is -3.1dBV, 0.7 V RMS - that should not be a problem (at least for any board I've ever used).

What board is the soundman using ?

Behringer CL-9 would be a cheap pedal to try if you must be the one to solve the issue.

[Wiz Feinberg]

Are you plugged in to the hi gain or low gain input on the amp ? There's 10db difference there.

The XLR out on the back of the amp is -3.1dBV, 0.7 V RMS - that should not be a problem (at least for any board I've ever used).

What board is the soundman using ?

Behringer CL-9 would be a cheap pedal to try if you must be the one to solve the issue.

I plug into the hi-gain input, then run through the pre-eq effects loop to feed my 5 effects pedals (one is a tuner).

I think the board is a Behringer X32, but not sure (that is the mixer app I use to connect to the board's router for my in-ear monitor). Will find out and edit this if necessary.

Sometimes we play loud in loud venues. That's when I get in trouble. ;-)

[John Ducsai]

I would plug into the low gain input - that's essentially a -10db pad. The XLR output on the back of the amp is tapped before the power amp section of your amplifier, so adjusting the "Pre Gain" down would also help and if you need more stage volume out of the amp use the "Master Gain" which should not effect the output at the XLR out.

[Wiz Feinberg]

I would plug into the low gain input - that's essentially a -10db pad. The XLR output on the back of the amp is tapped before the power amp section of your amplifier, so adjusting the "Pre Gain" down would also help and if you need more stage volume out of the amp use the "Master Gain" which should not effect the output at the XLR out.

Thanks John! That makes sense to me. Feed a lower overall signal to the XLR output and boost the volume on the amp for me only. I will still be at the mercy of the monitor amp and receiver pack, but what the hey.

I think that when I was overloading the board it was with a floor wedge, not IEMs. When I have my mixer app working right with the IEMs, I would go deaf before I overload the board. I do hate those buds! I believe that the sound man had taken me out of the monitor mix when I played too loud, to protect the input. That's what happens when you get too old and have to play New Country in beer tents full of screaming 20 something year old chicks and their jocks. They're a swillin and a guzzlin!

[Howard Parker]

Interesting..

My primary setup (N-112) is to set desired playing volume and send the line out feed to a Mackie digital console and then get a personal mix (whole band) back to my IEM's.

Larger venues we'll use the line out for FOH.

Never had an issue where I was punching the console too hard.

fwiw

h

[Paul Sutherland]

You could try the Keeley GC-2 Limiting Amplifier. It seems to be a combination of a limiter and a compressor. Someone here on the forum mentioned it in the past and so I tried one. It's now on my pedal board for playing Tele. But it does work for PSG. You can set it to just limit the peaks or you can set it to squish the sound like a compressor.

[George Biner]

Hmmm, the line level output of the amp is an XLR? Maybe the soundman is confusing that with a mic signal and is inputting it into a board mic channel? That would overload the board. Most boards except very high end ones have line inputs on 1/4" jacks, not XLRs.

What the soundman should do is forget your amp, get a $20 DI box (which he should already have), plug your post-effects 1/4" cable into it, give you a duplicate signal for your amp, and then take the XLR mic level signal from the DI into his board. That is the proper method. You won't get the sound of the amp, however.

If he has to take the signal from the amp (for the tone, say), he has to make sure it's compatible with the board input he is using -- that's his job, not yours.

[Dennis Detweiler]

George may be right. Line signal to a mic input may be too much for the board. As he said, there should be a line input for each channel also. If the only output signal on your amp is XLR, you can plug an adapter onto the XLR to 1/4, then into the channel line input?

[Wiz Feinberg]

Hmmm, the line level output of the amp is an XLR? Maybe the soundman is confusing that with a mic signal and is inputting it into a board mic channel? That would overload the board. Most boards except very high end ones have line inputs on 1/4" jacks, not XLRs.

Previously, he threw a mic over the amp. I never had an overload problem that I recall. Once he saw the XLR output he preferred the direct output to avoid picking up extraneous sound. Perhaps using the low gain input will smooth things over.

[Dave Mudgett]

If you really have to use a limiter, I also suggest the Keeley GC2 - https://robertkeeley.com/product/gc-2-l ... ompressor/

Some compressors can be effectively used as a limiter, but not all. A true limiter doesn't do anything at all until the signal amplitude hits the threshold level. This Keeley has a dual LED that goes from green to red to tell you when you've hit that threshold. So if you push it hard, you should be able easily see where to set the Threshold, and then set the compression pretty high to squash anything above that level.

Now, I agree with the other comments that you should not be having to do the sound guys' jobs for them. If they know what they're doing, they should be able to set the board up so your XLR line out signal doesn't overload the board at your highest input level. But I suppose if they have a real cheap board that doesn't have a Mic/Line level switch, a choice of Mic/Line level inputs, a signal pad, or a trim pot, then you may have to do something to cut your signal level down. The best way to do this would be to insert a pad between your line out and the board. That way, you can cut the signal to the board without affecting your own amp for monitoring.

If you don't want to fool with all that - as John D. points out - the XLR Line Out is post-EQ but pre-master-volume. So you could set your Master Volume all the way up, and use your Pre-Gain to set your overall volume, which also will set your signal level at the Line Out. If that doesn't get the level low enough at the board, then by all means, use the low-gain input. However you should know that the input impedance of the Low-Gain input is a LOT lower - 68 KOhm vs the 220 KOhm for the High-Gain input. I would have to use a buffer to tolerate a 68 KOhm input impedance to avoid pretty serious 'tone suck'. I even find 220 KOhm a bit low. For example, a typical Fender tube amp has an input impedance of 1 MegOhm (1000 KOhm). Of course, the other issue is that if you have to use such a low gain to keep the board from overloading, your amp may not be loud enough for proper monitoring of your sound, even with the Master Volume turned all the way up.

I have had problems like this with sound guys. Sometimes they can't get enough/any level from me, sometimes they were getting blown away. It's almost always user error of some sort - sometimes they're adjusting the wrong channel on the board, sometimes it's a bad cable, sometimes they don't know how to use the board. Sometimes I just have to give them more or less signal. But I've never had to use a limiter to keep them from overloading. Realize that when you're above the signal threshole point, your signal is going to be very squashed if you set a high compression ratio.

Or you could go back to mic'ing your amp. I really like using line outs, but there have been sound guys that just can't figure out how to deal with it. And they introduce another potential issue - line outs can also be susceptible to ground loop hum if there are grounding issues in the overall setup.

[George Biner]

Dennis, I agree with you about the adapter into the channel line in -- but still wonder why Peavey amp has a "Line Out" on a XLR? ---- maybe it's not a line out ....

The user manual for that amp, on page 6, it says "balanced, low impedance output" -- this implies a mic-type signal. Then, on page 10, it says "load impedance: 5kohm or greater. nominal output level 0.7Vrms" -- both numbers imply a line-type signal.

I think it;s probably a line out since that's what the specs say.

Next gig, I would subtly find out which input the cable is being plugged into.

[Dave Mudgett]

Here is what the NV 112 manual says about the XLR line out:

XLR Line Output:
Load impedance: 5 k Ohms or greater
Nominal output level: -3.1 dBV, 0.7 V RMS

That is around 1V peak-to-peak, and definitely a lot more than mic-level. If the sound guys are trying to use this into a mic-level input, it's no wonder they're overloading. And I seriously question using a limiter to 'fix' that.

Lots of amps use balanced outs for line outs. My Quilter also uses an XLR out for that purpose. I've routinely used both the Quilter and NV 112 line outs, they work nicely if applied properly.

Next gig, I would subtly find out which input the cable is being plugged into.

I guess we were writing concurrently. Personally, I wouldn't be too damned subtle in a case like this where they're telling me I have a problem that I need to buy equipment to fix. I guess I'm not much of a diplomat.

[Tony Prior]

Worst case or maybe best case scenario, not a Limiter but rather a Compressor, which in full bloom IS or can be a Limiter .

A Limiter cuts OFF signal while a Compressor Squashes it, but its still there, folded back into the original sound envelope.

Typically Compressors TAME peaks which sounds like what you desire. The trick to a Compressor is to set it so it TAMES peaks but you can't actually hear it working. Recording Engineers use Compressors and they can see it working on the meters but not necessarily HEAR it working. BALANCE.

I would suggest adding a Quality Compressor , not a Limiter. See if that helps with the situation.

Oh yeah, all Compressors are not equal . I use a Keeley every now and then but do keep in mind, they take some practice and understanding to dial in. Compressors are the easiest accessory to use poorly

Give it a try , they are great TOOLS to have in your gig bag.

[Lee Baucum]

Perhaps a low-tech solution would be to simply hang a microphone, like a Sennheiser e 609, in front of the amp.

e 609 Silver--Super-cardioid instrument microphone designed for miking guitar cabs face-on and extremely close to the source. Provides isolation from other onstage signals.

~Lee

[Dave Grafe]

Not your problem. It's up to those "engineers" to handle the signal at their end. There is no way that your DI output can be too hot if they know how to operate their board, digital or not

What Ian said.

With over forty years of live mixing experience with many of the best and the worst artists in the business, on analog and digital rigs, I'm here to tell you it's a poor engineer who blames the source for their own inadequacy. You play the way you need to and it's their job to make it work. Also BTW you're not going to damage the electronics no matter what you do, and anyone telling you otherwise is only flaunting their own ignorance.

[K Maul]

What the soundman should do is forget your amp, get a $20 DI box (which he should already have), plug your post-effects 1/4" cable into it, give you a duplicate signal for your amp, and then take the XLR mic level signal from the DI into his board. That is the proper method. You won't get the sound of the amp, however.

Absolutely correct. Maybe you should buy the DI box for the guy.

[Fred Treece]

How about patching your volume pedal into the Post EQ input? That would keep the gain level steady, and maybe solve the line out problem without having to go to the low gain input.