Copedent changes

Matt Hutchinson · Post by **Matt Hutchinson** » 2 Oct 2006 12:37 pm

Hi,

I have a Sierra Crown gearless U12 with 8&5 and I need to change the copedent. I'm not adding anything new but I want to move a couple of pedals and knee levers around. I've never done anything like this before so I'm slightly nervous about getting halfway through and ending up with a pile of bits I can't put back together. I guess the 3 main questions I want to ask are :

1. Is this a difficult thing to achieve?
2. Is the Crown model any easier/more difficult to work on than average?
3. Should I be doing one pedal/lever at a time or is it better to do everything in one go?

Any thoughts greatly appreciated.

Cheers.

Matt

Jerry Hayes · Post by **Jerry Hayes** » 2 Oct 2006 2:27 pm

Matt, if you've never done it before I don't think I'd attempt it as there are a lot of things which need to be balanced out to work properly. Since you're in the UK around London I'd contact Gerry Hogan. He could do it blindfolded and make it work like a dream.........JH in Va.

------------------
Don't matter who's in Austin (or anywhere else) Ralph Mooney is still the king!!!

Matt Hutchinson · Post by **Matt Hutchinson** » 2 Oct 2006 2:46 pm

Thanks Jerry.

I'm kinda nervous about doing it myself so you're probably right!

Matt

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 2 Oct 2006 3:18 pm

On the other hand....
You might make one change and see if it's successful. Just make a rodding chart before you do it so you can restore it.
You'll have to determine which hole the rod should go on to. It's logic.
A Sierra is not hard to work on.

You can learn a lot about the functioning of steels by trying it. I find it satisfying to make these changes on my own.

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 2 Oct 2006 3:24 pm

If the cross-rods on the pedals/levers you want to swap both have the same amount of bell-cranks on them, then it's just a matter of pulling out the pull-rods, line up the bell-cranks in the new position, and replace the pull-rods.
If you have to remove cross-rods (what the bell-cranks attach to) to relocate bell-cranks, then it gets to be a bit more of a job.
Note what holes the rods are in, in the the changer, and in the bell crank, before removing the pull-rods.
Put them in the same changer-hole and bell-crank position when you switch them.

What pedals/levers are you planning to move around?
[This message was edited by Pete Burak on 02 October 2006 at 04:28 PM.]

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 2 Oct 2006 5:01 pm

The Sierra Crown is pretty easy to work on as long as you don't need to move a puller from one crossrod to another. Then it's really rough.

The Sierra Session model fixed this problem by using square crossrods.

Fred Glave · Post by **Fred Glave** » 2 Oct 2006 6:31 pm

I've got a Sierra Crown gearless U12 too. I just had it gone over by Don Curtis down at Scotty's. I don't think I've got the patience to take on a big job. I don't mind doing little modifications myself. Like Charlie says, try one little change first to get a taste of working on it. If it works out well, move on to the next change. Sierra can get you the parts if you need them. Before you get started, just make sure you have someone to take it to if you get in too deep.

Matt Hutchinson · Post by **Matt Hutchinson** » 3 Oct 2006 1:30 am

Thanks for the replies. Basically, my copedent is the standard Sierra universal, you can see it here (this is the steel I bought from Scott Swartz on the forum a couple of years ago):
http://msswartz.tripod.com/Sierra_U12.htm

I want to change it to something more like the Newman U12 setup. Basically this will involve moving the Boowah from 8 to 4, moving all the levers so the E raise and lowers are on the right and either removing pedal 8 for now or leaving it to experiment with.

Sounds like quite a lot of work to me! Maybe Fred's got the best idea, find someone I can take it to before I start. Then if all goes well I do it myself and learn a bit about how my instrument works, if not I get someone else to do it.

David Mason · Post by **David Mason** » 3 Oct 2006 2:12 am

How do you learn to do it yourself, if you don't do it yourself? I have some major changes planned all around the left end of things (I have to disconnect everything else, I guess) and I'm genuinely curious. Is Bobbe's maintainance video a help? If I take it to somebody and they do it, what happens next time I want to change it?

Jerry Overstreet · Post by **Jerry Overstreet** » 3 Oct 2006 3:03 am

I did this very change on my SCM14SE that I had a few years back. Seems to me, it was a pain. Maybe because I ended up changing it back to the Sierra set-up.

You will need another pull rod if you swap pedals 4 & 8. You will also have to reposition some of the bellcranks. Best I recall, that involves moving the crossshafts toward the back of the guitar.

It's your axe and you can do whatever you want, but I would strongly suggest you study the Sierra copedent closely and explore fully Sierra's thinking on this set-up with the lock

I might add that I had another Uni at the time and reconfiged the Sierra to match that one. I found it was a mistake for me.

I decided Sierra had it right to start with. YMMV.
Good Luck!

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 3 Oct 2006 4:44 am

I take it back. I forgot the Crown has round cross shafts.

Matt Hutchinson · Post by **Matt Hutchinson** » 3 Oct 2006 5:31 am

Thanks Jerry, it's interesting to hear your views on keeping it the same. I've got the Newman Universal video course and the way he explains the setup makes so much sense I wanted to try it. I'm certainly not an experienced enough player to dismiss the Sierra setup and I'm sure there's a lot to recommend it

Mike Wheeler · Post by **Mike Wheeler** » 3 Oct 2006 6:01 am

Yes, it's not for the faint of heart...but I think every player should be able to do these things himself. It takes a LOT of patience and time, but the rewards are great.

From what I can see, you'll only need an extra bellcrank and pull rod for pedal 4...easily attainable from Sierra. All the other knee and pedal rods can be re-used for the new pulls.

You'll have to remove the pedal 4 cross shaft to put the new bellcrank on...which may require removing a lot of pull rods to accomplish. If this is necessary, make real sure you make detailed notes of where everything is so you can re-rod it correctly. (which bellcrank holes and changer holes were used for each pull)

Beyond that, it's just a matter of shifting some bellcranks and rods to different positions. Just in case you get all fouled up, have a good steel tech in mind who can help bail you out of a jam.

Jerry Overstreet · Post by **Jerry Overstreet** » 3 Oct 2006 6:22 am

Matt, I do not mean to dismiss the Newman set-up. I too, have Jeff's Universal course. I even bought a new brand X, 7 + 4 guitar with his set-up.

Since I already been playing the Sierra, I converted it over to the Newman copedent so they would be the same. Even went so far as to remove pedal 8. But as I compared the differences, I felt I could do more with Sierra's arrangement.
FI, I could use the center knee levers [mine was 8 + 7] to do all the things I was used to on the D10 for 15 or so previous years. Plus it seemed like such a waste having all that good cabbage lying around unused in the parts bin!

I found I could still reach all the pedals with my left foot, even in the unlocked position, left knee between lkl and lkr. For serious swing or big band stuff, I would put the lock on.

I do like your thinking on moving the boo-wah pedal to #4. I have always had it there, even on the Sierra.

There are many, many Jeff Newman disciples including myself. I studied in his classroom and have much of his instruction material. Lots of players think Jeff-wise about thinking one big tuning v the 2 tunings on one axe. Lots of food
for thought there.

There are proponents of both camps. I don't propose to say which way is the best.

I apologize for the sermon. Since your question was about the difficulty on changing the set-up and not about my opinion on the tuning.

I restate that it takes quite a bit of time and you will need at least one pull rod. Available from Sierra probably, or some of the other builders would have some rod in that size. Perhaps you could even fashion one yourself.

Hopefullly, you can just reposition the cranks to the new location.

Only way you will know what is the best for you, is to try it! You can always put it back. Just keep diagrams of all the original positions and set aside lots of time to do it.
Again, best of luck. [This message was edited by Jerry Overstreet on 03 October 2006 at 07:31 AM.]

Matt Hutchinson · Post by **Matt Hutchinson** » 3 Oct 2006 7:06 am

Jerry,

Don't worry, it didn't come across as a sermon, just as someone putting another idea forward. Maybe I'll move the BooWah to pedal 4, put the old pedal 4 on 8 and leave the knees where they are for now as a starting point. I can always do the levers at a later point.

Jerry Hayes · Post by **Jerry Hayes** » 3 Oct 2006 7:09 am

Matt, I think you're right about moving the E raises and lowers to your right knee levers as Jeff did. I originally had mine on LKR when I first got my first U-12 and they only stayed there for a short while as it locks your leg in one spot. If it's on RKR then your left leg is free to move anywhere it wants including verticle levers. I don't like the change lock that the Sierra has either. My BMI had one when I first got it and it was the first thing to go. As far as pedal 8 goes, last year I sent my steel to BMI to be rebuilt and had a pedal 8 ADDED! All it does it raise my 4th string to F# for some Ralph Mooney things. It's right next to the volume pedal so you can just tap it with your right foot. I've worked on PSG's for years and when I was going to redo my guitar, I just sent it to the manufacturer to make sure it was done right.........JH in Va.

------------------
Don't matter who's in Austin (or anywhere else) Ralph Mooney is still the king!!!

Scott Swartz · Post by **Scott Swartz** » 3 Oct 2006 10:40 am

Matt, good to hear you are still playing the Sierra, I learned a lot on that axe,the Crown Sierras play so smoooooth.....

Lots of good advice on this thread, I don't have any additional thoughts on the E changes left leg or right for a universal since I am playing D10 and SD10 axes now, but I thought the Sierra system worked well, never tried the Newman.

I would reiterate the point about making very careful diagrams before you take anything apart, and I would add to that some digital photos and also mark positions of bellcranks on the cross rod before moving them with a fine tip marker. With enough info of how to get back, you are at little risk, but I would agree it makes sense to start small with swapping pedals 4 and 8.

I have had my Sierra Session D10 completely disassembled, all rods and bellcranks off for a major copedant redesign, and it is a major job to put a steel undercarriage back together. If you are going to a new arrangement, you will have to figure out all the interactions of bellcrank/changer hole positions with rod paths in three dimensions (ie the rods are not binding on each other), and there is a lot going on under a universal.

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 3 Oct 2006 2:41 pm

My advice is, don't do it!
That copedant was based on Buddy's input to Sierra, and is very sound.
Lock into B6th and flip LKR out of the way and you have a 5x1 B6th that is in line with the majority of existing 6th tuning tab ever released (which is all in C6th of course

).
E raises and lowers on LKL/LKR is also the Emmons way and a significant amount of tab follows that form as well.
This copedant was based more on getting the existing D10 functions of the day, onto a single neck guitar (as compared to the One Big Tuning theory where many pedals/levers function in both E9/B6 realms).
[This message was edited by Pete Burak on 03 October 2006 at 04:49 PM.]

Matt Hutchinson · Post by **Matt Hutchinson** » 4 Oct 2006 1:44 am

Scott :

Yep, still playing the Sierra, it's a great instrument to play and I think it'll last me for years - as long as my back can take the weight! Thanks again for being such a help during the sale.

Fred Glave · Post by **Fred Glave** » 4 Oct 2006 11:31 am

When I bought mine, for some reason I thought I was cutting down on weight getting a single neck

My copedent is close to the regular Sierra except the normal P8 change is on P4 and on P8 I raise 10 and 11 strings to A and F# respectively. I'm missing the string 6 and 10 G# to A# changes and I can only lower B to Bb on string 5. I'd like to get the 9 string B to Bb change going too. That will be my "do-it-yourself" project.

Jeremy Threlfall · Post by **Jeremy Threlfall** » 6 Oct 2006 6:10 pm

I just got a bewdiful Pro-I, and its set up with the E's on the RK.

This being a Universal thread, I don't want to hijack it with my S10 dilemnas, but I'm interested if many S10 players have this arrangement, and what the advantages/disadvantages may be. I recognise it leaves the L leg free-er to waggle about, but that hasn't been a significant obstacle for me (a bit of an ostacle with the arthiritis in my ankle - but I figured it was good therapy!) I've had a Carter Starter, so its all a bit exotic-looking under there, but the change looks like a straightforward-enough procedure, if I decide to revert. I'm a basic learner, happy with my lot in life (pretty rapt at the moment!).

Jeremy
[This message was edited by Jeremy Threlfall on 06 October 2006 at 07:25 PM.]