12 string universal PSG

Brad Jensen · Post by **Brad Jensen** » 1 Mar 2022 3:04 pm

I am a complete novice to the pedal steel guitar. I have been doing extensive research and would appreciate some help in deciding what kind of guitar to buy. I believe that a 12 string universal is capable of E9 and C6, and wonder if that assumption is correct? And regarding pedals, do any of you have suggestions for an arrangement that will be best for a developing player? Advice would be very helpful. Thanks.

Tom Gorr · Post by **Tom Gorr** » 1 Mar 2022 4:07 pm

I started on an E9 3x4 S10 and quickly moved to a Uni within a year.

Recognize that a E9/B6 Uni is missing the D on S9.

As a newbie on straight E9 you will curse that D string because it sounds "in the way" with no pedals I and IV chord except in the odd situation where you need an I7 or IV7. It is the most common cause of a bunk note and can be frustrating. A lot of beginner learning material doesn't even have examples of its proper use so it's easy to underestimate its utility and want it gonzo.

But... once you get proper control over your grips and right-hand technique - not having the D string could make you lag in the skill of modern E9 playing.

Some uni copeds raise the B to a D and/or drop S8 E to D but that doesn't get the full job done as it misses scale run opportunities that can be used in conjunction with E lower and raise and even the X lever.

You only have half of E9 without that string imo and you'll find yourself boxed in a bit.

There are other Uni tunings other than E9/B6 that preserve the D string (see Johnny Cox's E13) but then you must change common grips for C6 playing.

All in - I'm at least a temporary convert to a full-fledged modern D10 and that's where I'd start if I had to do it over again.

I'd say spend your first 5-10 years on a D10 and then give a Uni a try. They have the benefit of being lighter and more mobile for gigging. But learn your skills first.

Brad Jensen · Post by **Brad Jensen** » 1 Mar 2022 4:21 pm

Thanks Tom. When you say a D-10, is that a double neck 10 string?

Jeremy Threlfall · Post by **Jeremy Threlfall** » 1 Mar 2022 5:36 pm

another question is:

do you actually want those C6 sounds?

I've never been a C6 player, but I did dive in with a universal tuning on a ten string guitar to see if i like it

I don't really

maybe I've never had the appropriate instruction, but that C6 sound just has never grabbed me as something i might use

(I'm happy enough on an open-G dobro tuning, so go figure!)

I'll stick with it, though, the light might go on in my head one day

my next guitar will be a 11 string E9 (with an added G# on the bottom). I like that 9th string D too much

Chris Brooks · Post by **Chris Brooks** » 2 Mar 2022 6:00 am

Yes, Brad: D-10 = double neck 10 string. SD 12, means a single neck 12 string body on a larger body.

I agree with Tom. On the E9 tuning, the D string is very useful.

And I wouldn't be concerned about not having a "C 6 sound". You do a darn good approximation of it on an E9 with 4 levers. Yes, you can play jazz on E9.

Standard pedals on E9 are called pedals A, B, and C.
Knee levers vary according to choice. This has mostly to do with the levers that flat and sharp the Es. Some players like them on the left leg; others on the right leg.

My best advice: Buy a decent modern guitar in good shape and work with its pedal/lever setup. Sure, after a couple of years you may well want get another instrument (Most of us have too many, ha ha.) But by then you will have gotten the basics down: right hand picking, left hand fretting.

Ian Rae · Post by **Ian Rae** » 2 Mar 2022 6:47 am

I started on D10 and switched to B6/E9 uni after a year because I was equally interested in E9 and C6 but I didn't want to haul a big heavy guitar.

I don't miss the E9 D string. Although I know what Tom means, I didn't pursue straight E9 for long enough to get attached to it.

Brad, on a uni you can get stuck into the instructional material for both tunings. You'll soon get used to reading C6 tab one fret higher.

K Maul · Post by **K Maul** » 2 Mar 2022 7:09 am

Brad Jensen wrote: I believe that a 12 string universal is capable of E9 and C6.And regarding pedals, do any of you have suggestions for an arrangement that will be best for a developing player? .

Some feel you give up a little of each with a single 12 but some do fine. Click LINKS button above, then COPEDENTS and UNIVERSAL to see various ideas for 12 string setups.

John Sims · Post by **John Sims** » 2 Mar 2022 8:27 am

Brad,

I started on a U12 and have had no issues. I wouldn't know what a D string is! And, I probably wouldn't know how to play a standard setup D10 since the KL's are different that what I learned on. I do however have the 9th string D option on LKL on my steel. I wouldn't disagree with you on changing steels and your concerns. One of the best teachers, Jeff Newman, said "make a decision and stick with it". I would highly recommend his courses. Changing from a double body/neck 10 string to a 12 is easy for some, but not all. Check out other players setups/copedants and find a quality steel so as not to become disappointed. I posted a standard E9/B6 copedant/setup below from Jeff Newman and my U12 copedant which is anything but standard. And yes, you can easily play C6 on an E9 tuning and on a U12. I'm just now learning how to play C6 on mine, and as Ian said, it's just 1 fret different...

Brad Jensen · Post by **Brad Jensen** » 2 Mar 2022 11:28 am

Thank you all for your insights and advice. Your comments have helped.

Bobby D. Jones · Post by **Bobby D. Jones** » 3 Mar 2022 8:32 pm

The Universal is a very interesting setup, I went from an S10 E9th to a 12 string Uni. and found that the 8-9-10-11 strings are another octave of strings that have a lot of uses. I have not really got into the B6th part of the tuning yet.
Here is a picture of Jeff Newman's copendent with the cents lowers and raises from 440 tuning Mr. Newman used.

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 3 Mar 2022 10:20 pm

Don’t make playing pedalsteel any more complicated than it already is. U12’s and complex set ups look good on paper if you look at tunings like slide rule and the bar as a capo. This is a basic misunderstanding that beginners start with and can be crippling. Get a basic S10 with a standard set up. All the music is there. Once you find all the music you want to play on that basic set up expand into whatever suits your needs. Struggling with layer after layer of (at this point) arbitrary options can be a serious distraction from the real work of learning how to play.

John Sims · Post by **John Sims** » 4 Mar 2022 4:31 am

Bobby D. Jones wrote:The Universal is a very interesting setup, I went from an S10 E9th to a 12 string Uni. and found that the 8-9-10-11 strings are another octave of strings that have a lot of uses. I have not really got into the B6th part of the tuning yet.
Here is a picture of Jeff Newman's copendent with the cents lowers and raises from 440 tuning Mr. Newman used.

Bobby, You must get a Jeff Newman's Universal E9th/B6th course. It's amazing and easy. I learned to play B6th in less than an hour!

Andrew Frost · Post by **Andrew Frost** » 4 Mar 2022 4:55 pm

Man, going universal would be a no brainer if I was in the habit of lowering Es on the right on the E tuning.

I think what Bob H is saying is reasonable. That said, if you do go w a S10 and get caught up in Emmons style Es on the left- which is pretty standard I think its safe to say- then going to a Uni down the road would be a bit of a hurdle (beyond the obvious and apparent addition of strings and changes).
But hey, apparently some Uni players are able to do it w the Emmons set up. I can't imagine it being comfortable west of pedal 5 though...
Just something to consider if you're starting fresh...

Bobby D. Jones · Post by **Bobby D. Jones** » 4 Mar 2022 8:17 pm

I played S10 E9th Day Setup pedals since 1970, With LKL Lower E's, LKR raise E's, From 1999 to 2017. Went to S12 U Day Setup, Moved Lower E's to RKR and Raise E's to RKL. The knee levers never gave me much trouble.

When I bought the S12 U, It was Emmon's Setup. In changing it to Day Set Up, And moving the knee Levers, Setting the raises and lowers proper. Then put new strings on and tuned the pedals and knee levers. In 1 practice session the knee levers felt natural.

It was actually harder to change 6G#-8E-10B Grip to 6G#-8E-9B Grip. Moving my thumb 1 string was a lot harder than changing knee levers. The only good thing, A oops 6-8-10 grip, G#-E-G# did not go completely an "OH WHAT".

One jam session seemed to smooth everything out.

Fred Treece · Post by **Fred Treece** » 5 Mar 2022 9:20 am

One suggestion I did not pay enough attention to when I started 5 years ago was that you can buy a U12 and set it up as a basic S10 E9. You can leave the bottom 2 strings off, have your 9th string D, standard 3 pedals and 4 levers, and get your body mechanics working and play some music instead of noodling around with 45 changes to keep in tune...

If you have the money to spend on an expandable guitar, do it, because if you stick with it you probably will want to expand.

Andrew Frost · Post by **Andrew Frost** » 5 Mar 2022 9:46 am

I agree with the logic in Fred's comment.

On the other hand, and this is just a philosophical consideration I guess-
there's something to be said for squeezing the juice out of a simple set up. There's nothing quite like that obsessive 'hunger' for a certain change you don't have on the guitar yet. I think it makes you focus in a resourceful way on what you have.

Really though I think 'all roads lead to Rome' and whichever way you go, will be a good journey.

Austin Tripp · Post by **Austin Tripp** » 5 Mar 2022 8:57 pm

Here’s my U12. I’ve used this tuning for 8 years now and I absolutely love it. I’ll never go back to a D10 other than studio use at home. I can get anything on this tuning that I could on a C6th. And I love using the lower strings for harmony with the higher strings. It gets lost on stage in the mix but man it sounds good recorded.

Jim Pitman · Post by **Jim Pitman** » 6 Mar 2022 11:18 am

One thing folks haven't mentioned about a U12 is that those lower notes, the root and the 5th, come in handy especially for rock material. It's real easy for example to do the Chuck Berry rhythm vamp.
I play U12 and use my B to D lever often. One can play B,then C, then D, ie 5,6,7, easily on the same string. I really don't see it as a compromise at all. - actually a benefit.

John Sohn · Post by **John Sohn** » 7 Mar 2022 8:59 pm

Austin,

I have really enjoyed your work with Cody Jinks over the last few years! I have been to several of your shows.

I am still trying to learn this instrument (after more years than I care to admit). I have been looking over your copedent and I am very intrigued. Do you have a pedal 6 equivalent that return string 4 to E and lowers 8 to D when your RKR is engaged?

Austin Tripp wrote:Here’s my U12. I’ve used this tuning for 8 years now and I absolutely love it. I’ll never go back to a D10 other than studio use at home. I can get anything on this tuning that I could on a C6th. And I love using the lower strings for harmony with the higher strings. It gets lost on stage in the mix but man it sounds good recorded.

K Maul · Post by **K Maul** » 8 Mar 2022 6:35 am

John Sohn wrote:Do you have a pedal 6 equivalent that return string 4 to E and lowers 8 to D when your RKR is engaged?

You don’t need one. Letting off the Eb lever returns 4 to E, then engage the E-D lower and there you are. One advantage of having E-Eb on right knee(which I don’t. I’m too used to E-Eb on LKR, even with Universals).

John Sohn · Post by **John Sohn** » 8 Mar 2022 10:10 am

Yes, I see that now and it makes sense. Thanks for pointing that out!

Earnest Bovine · Post by **Earnest Bovine** » 8 Mar 2022 10:48 am

K Maul wrote:
John Sohn wrote:Do you have a pedal 6 equivalent that return string 4 to E and lowers 8 to D when your RKR is engaged?
You don’t need one. Letting off the Eb lever returns 4 to E, then engage the E-D lower and there you are.

It would make more sense to me to add a half step raise to your LKR. With your RKR you would get E on string 4 and D on string 8 (useful). Without your RKR you would get F on string 4 and D on string 8 (also useful).

It would be nice if those 2 levers did not both move to the right since that might push the instrument sidewways.

Fred Treece · Post by **Fred Treece** » 9 Mar 2022 7:03 pm

https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtop ... highlight=
Damir is a very reputable seller here on the forum. The beautiful Mullen in that ad is typical of his offerings. Looks to be set up like an like an expandable S10.

Chris Brooks · Post by **Chris Brooks** » 10 Mar 2022 4:37 am

Guys, remember Brad's first sentence?

"I am a complete novice to the pedal steel guitar."

Austin posts a copedent with 13 changes on it. Bobby delves into the intricacies of changing grips for a U 12. John's Universal E9/B6 copedent employs 13 different changes.

I suggest that these fascinating intricacies make sense to a player with several years' experience who wants to make his or her 2nd move in steeling. But Brad is a "complete novice" shopping for his very first steel. His head must be spinning, deciphering such arcane matters.

I am with Bob H., who writes, "Get a basic S10 with a standard set up. All the music is there." After a few years, think about another tuning--or not.

Fred Treece · Post by **Fred Treece** » 10 Mar 2022 6:30 am

It is a good idea to always revert back to the OP before contributing to a discussion.

The fact that Brad’s “head was spinning” already toward considering a U12 puts him in a slightly different category of “complete novice” than I was. But it is not an entirely unreasonable choice for a beginner to start there.That’s not to say he isn’t in for a shock when he actually sits down and starts to play. Bob H has suggested starting off with a basic S10, while others have suggested setting up a U12 as a basic S10 without getting weedy about copedent details, which is an indication that those others have read the OP from start to finish. I don’t see anything inherently wrong with starting on a U12.

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