Player acceptance, lap vs. pedal steel guitars?

[Howard Parker]

I was thinking in terms of today's music, not 50 year old pop.

Donny, as much as I might love this stuff it's like lusting after ragtime as the music world has moved on..

h

[Donny Hinson]

Heard that all before, Howard. But the fact is that simple steel licks, from a pedaled guitar or otherwise, can be played in any music...even in most of today's popular music. It's the mindset of the producers and artists that must change if we're to get anywhere. If the audience isn't exposed to instrument, in all it's styles and variations, how in blazes is anyone supposed to develop a liking for it? Another thread mentions a lady steeler that played some very basic stuff in a song on Austin City Limits. Will that inspire anyone if you don't hear it somewhere else? Fat chance.

When I was young, fifty or more years ago, I listened to all kinds of music. I played guitar in rock, soul, and folk bands before I learned steel guitar. I listened to jazz, ragtime, big band, and classical music, but never really had the skills or opportunity to play that stuff. But I listened to it! And if all any musician listens to or plays is "today's music", I feel sorry for them. They really don't know what they're missing. The sheer variety we had in the '60s and '70s is what's missing today. Maybe the mass audience has been dumbed-down so much they don't care for anything else.

Only one thing is for sure, nothing gets popular or accepted without exposure.

[Jim Pitman]

One thing I'd like to point out. The sound/attack envelope is markedly different.
IMO:
The mechanical design of a pedal steel that insures tuning stability are robust - a lot of metal at both ends. I think this accounts for the natural compression and lengthy sustain we associate with PSG. This is wonderful as it changes the guitar's role a bit in recorded music. There are a few instruments that exhibit this quality even more so, namely the violin, organ, and brass instruments.
The lap steel, on the other hand, is more electric guitar like whereby the attack is significant and the note dies off quicker. This can be verified by observing the envelope of plucked note using something like Pro Tools, etc.
Frequency content - PSG has less overtones and more pure tones - the opposite of lap steel.
These are generalities of course and some lap steels can sound PSG like and visa-versa.
I'd be interested in occasionally using an affect pedal that kills the sustain and adds more harmonics for my PSG. it doesn't exist as far as I know.
To me a lap steel with overdrive distortion sounds more interesting than a pedal steel with overdrive for the above reasons and this is why I used to use one on a gig back when I cared about playing that style of music more.
More to Howard's point - I have a few musician friends I've played with in the past that prefer I play lap steel over pedal steel. I don't enjoy this because I think it's a one trick pony. I think they believe that PSG pigeon holes the music as country and their preferred audience is rock.

[Bill Sinclair]

Howard,

I know it's not rock, but when we played together in a jump blues & swing band some years ago, you almost always brought out your Fender Dual Professional (non-pedal console) instead of your pedal steel. (Thanks for introducing me to how cool it was to have a steel in the band, by the way).
When I've heard you more recently in a Retro country/Americana band, you play pedal. What, on your part, informed both of those decisions?

[Howard Parker]

Mighty fine.

Donny, to a large degree, I understand and agree but...

All of that diversity in music from the past is all still available and much..much more.

I think a difference is that in 2022 you have to look for it. It's no longer "handed" to you over the public airwaves.

I'm fortunate that I haven't "aged out" of gigging although there's definitely light at the end of the tunnel. Even as I'm aware of what major labels offer I'm much more interested in indi/self produced stuff and especially what's happening with local/regional bands. I've taken part in a bit of genre cross pollination and it's been a blast. It took some effort to seek out the music and the players. I've learned a lot.

I wonder how often "we" actively pursue opportunity outside of our classic box.

Thanks for the discourse..

hp

[Howard Parker]

Howard,

I know it's not rock, but when we played together in a jump blues & swing band some years ago, you almost always brought out your Fender Dual Professional (non-pedal console) instead of your pedal steel. (Thanks for introducing me to how cool it was to have a steel in the band, by the way).
When I've heard you more recently in a Retro country/Americana band, you play pedal. What, on your part, informed both of those decisions?

Hey neighbor,

You remember better than me...

I did spend a few years on the Fender Custom (now in pieces) but as I educated myself in the music I decided that I was really enamored with the honky tonk sound of the 60's.

The icing on the cake was going to a Mike Auldridge PSG gig and him telling me that "playing psg was more fun than sex, the first year of marriage."

The wife was with me and said "well, you better go do it then".

Must say that Mike is/was godlike to me. I still consider myself a contemporary bluegrass, dobro guy, even though I spend most of my time as a mediocre pedal steel player these days.

I still have too much dobro in my right hand.

h

[Asa Brosius]

I think the question is somewhere in the middle of 1-how we learned, the styles that drew us to the instrument, our habits 2-what we want to play and how capable we are, and most importantly 3- what we're hired for, which is equivalent to what the band and audience want to hear. The three rarely line up in my experience. PSG takes some work to go from clean country to any other sound-stepping on a tubescreamer won't do it- and ~%90 of the journey is thinking in the appropriate genre. Maybe %5 dealing with the most overwound pickups in music. And another %5 fighting off clever Hal Rugg 2nd string licks and just doing a 1/5 octave slide.

[Donny Hinson]

I'd be interested in occasionally using an affect pedal that kills the sustain and adds more harmonics for my PSG. it doesn't exist as far as I know.

I don't think you need a pedal gizmo, just a lighter (or smaller) bar, and a smaller amp with a small speaker. Playing through a big amp with a big speaker and using a volume pedal imparts it's own characteristic long sustain and full sound. But the lack of speaker overdrive and intermodulation distortion robs some of those unique overtones you're talking about (when you use the big gear pedal steelers are accustomed to). Coincidentally, my last 3 amp purchases were little amps.

Not really arguing here, but just thinking of simpler ways to "get out of the box" of typical clean/pure pedal steel sounds. And I have to admit...there's just something special about playing through a 15 (or less) watt amp with a 6" or 8" speaker.

I'm certainly no famous player or expert at this stuff, but I sometimes just prefer a simpler approach to get a different sound.

[Brooks Montgomery]

It does seem to me that Greg Leisz has figured out as well as anybody, when to use pedals, when to go lapsteel. At least for my ears.
It would be fascinating and enlightening to hear how he decides.

[Dave Mudgett]

PSG takes some work to go from clean country to any other sound-stepping on a tubescreamer won't do it- and ~%90 of the journey is thinking in the appropriate genre. Maybe %5 dealing with the most overwound pickups in music. And another %5 fighting off clever Hal Rugg 2nd string licks and just doing a 1/5 octave slide.

I agree with this general thought. I think to get in the mindset of blues, and at least blues-based rock music, it helps to be able to think like a slide guitar player. I think this is hard for a sizeable chunk of the steel guitar community, many (if not most) of which seem to consider slide guitar a totally different instrument and not part of the steel guitar family. For example -

https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=216195

https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=339475

I also think it's sometimes pretty hard to tell whether someone is playing pedal, nonpedal, or slide guitar - that is, if they're playing to the genre they're in. Just one example - https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=343188

And I don't see any particular distinction between Aubrey Ghent's console steel and Robert Randolph's pedal steel here - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pVGRrvpLREE

So, I agree with the original thesis of this thread that self-imposed siloism is an issue for steel guitar, and especially pedal steel. I just don't think there's anything intrinsically limiting about it that demands it stay within those confines. But I still think the issue of acceptance of steel - and especially pedal steel - by the rest of the musical world, outside of its traditional parameters, is also an issue.

BTW, as much as I like these songs, I don't exactly consider Joanne, Right Down the Line, Crimson and Clover, and Top of the World rock songs. Certainly not in any contemporary context - a lot of stuff coming out of Nashville is more rock than this. One band I work with does Right Down the Line, and it fits very nicely with all the other more country-oriented stuff we do. Another band I work with does quite a bit of either classic rock or contemporary country that has a clear basis in rock. I play pedal steel, slide guitar, and guitar in that unit, depending on what parts need to get handled in this 4-piece.

[scott murray]

When The Carpenters did their big hit "Top of The World" the producers, for whatever reason, had two pedal steelers track, Buddy Emmons and Red Rhodes. But they chose Red Rhodes' dirt-simple intro over something Buddy could have (or maybe even did) come up with.

I believe Buddy was brought in later to fill out the song, he posted his recollections somewhere. Richard Carpenter directed the sessions... he liked Red's intro and outro but wanted more fills. not sure why he didn't just get Red to come back in, perhaps he was unavailable.

[John Larson]

It does seem to me that Greg Leisz has figured out as well as anybody, when to use pedals, when to go lapsteel. At least for my ears.
It would be fascinating and enlightening to hear how he decides.

Eric Heywood as well. His stuff with Jeffrey Focault and Ray LaMontagne is brilliant as well as Son Volt in the 90s. I notice both Leisz and Heywood are proponents of extended E9 tuning and in my opinion this is a key addition to allow playing pad type chords in a lower voicing.

Jeffrey Focault - "Starlight and Static"
https://youtu.be/mwe1TT1tkcc

Ray LaMontagne - "Beg Steal or Borrow"
https://youtu.be/yFUlpY_VBg4

[scott murray]

Ray has TWO steelers on that Letterman clip! Eric Heywood and Jon Rauhouse (?)

kudos to him... I know Dave is a big fan of steel.

[Rich Ertelt]

I am a guitar player by trade but I do play pedal steel. I am playing mainly pedal in a band right now. A couple of the songs don't have pedal on them but have slide guitar. Now, I am also bringing a guitar, and I can and do play slide in standard, but I'd want to use a dedicated slide guitar tuned (to open E for this stuff, though I use other tunings). Thing is, playing steel and guitar, I bring enough stuff, so I use a distortion pedal, a 3/4 lapsteel bar and fingers, no picks. I even drop F# down to E so I have the 4 most important slide notes right there, just like on guitar.

I have been playing slide for a long time, grew up on blues stuff, picked up on ABB later on. It is really easy to cop that stuff on pedal steel. It isn't exactly the same but close enough for gig work.

So I see no reason why it couldn't be done. I don't use the pedals when playing "slide" stuff, but it certainly could work.

[Samuel Phillippe]

I have read all these comments and on each one I can see what their tastes are. You guys being pro players are compelled to play what producers and lead artists want. To me that is where the comments on style stem from.

Me I play regular guitar and lap steel. Just started on pedal steel, not because I have to but because I WANT to. If pedal steel is slipping into history I will still play it. May not get paid to do so but will still enjoy playing it.

My dad played ukulele back when I was learning guitar (1950). It was popular when he was a kid but dissapeared around the late 40's. Kids are now taking it up and they are selling well, so maybe the same is happening with psg.

Times change....play the music and style you want. Have fun with what you do and let the noobies set their trend. I will admit, you don't have to like what they do.

Sam