Mining the potential of Universal tunings...

Andrew Frost · Post by **Andrew Frost** » 24 Oct 2021 10:33 am

I love hearing great players really diving deep on C6, particularly in a jazz type capacity. And I understand that uni tunings are set up to theoretically allow for a 'C6 approach', but aside from a few Bb players really swinging on that tuning, there seems to be a real scarcity of E9/B6 players who are really tapping into the complex harmonic language afforded on a universal tuning. This is no judgement, just observation, but it seems to me that the majority of E9/B6 players stick to mostly 'Issacs' style phrasing, and have the the rest of the copedant's capabilities on standby for the odd moment when a 'swingy style' is desired. And that's totally cool. But, where are the uni players who are really 'wringing the cloth dry' and squeezing the rich harmonic possibilities out of the tuning? Really blending it in to 'one big tuning'?.. I'm sure they are out there. This topic kind of rubs up against the fact that the E9 tuning itself is arguably still largely unexplored, especially in terms of jazz influenced playing, which is related food for thought I suppose...Interested to hear people's thoughts.

Rick Abbott · Post by **Rick Abbott** » 24 Oct 2021 11:27 am

Joe Wright plays a universal as a single tuning. I don't know if he has played in the jazz genera, but his approach is pretty impressive just the same. He plays pretty complex voicings and seems to have no limitations.

Tony Glassman · Post by **Tony Glassman** » 24 Oct 2021 12:06 pm

David Wright plays Bb6th Universal and is equally great at country & jazz

Floyd Lowery · Post by **Floyd Lowery** » 25 Oct 2021 6:09 am

Two words --- Junior Knight

Ian Rae · Post by **Ian Rae** » 25 Oct 2021 6:42 am

There's nothing magic about Bb6 - it's just B6 down a semitone. In any case, jazz is a style not a tuning. Although a 6th setup offers close harmonies that suit jazz, there are also plenty available on the E9 (Jody Cameron is one exponent that springs to mind).

I take Andrew's point though - a universal tuning will always have the bigger vocabulary.

Benjamin Davidson · Post by **Benjamin Davidson** » 25 Oct 2021 8:10 am

Great way to look at the topic. I've been playing for just over 3 years, it didn't take me long to realize that I needed to make the transition to a Universal Copedent to play some of the great things that had been played on C6th through the years, without having to buy a new guitar. Franklin being the largest influence on this aspect of my playing.

I feel the great holdup the community fully embracing a single Universal tuning has been mechanics. Changers and split tuning mechanisms limit what the Universal can do. There are few Copedents a Triple Raise/Triple Lower changer and modern split tuning can't address for E9th and C6th, but to build a fully functional Universal Copedent - you end up with compromises. Even after you pair down the changes to the changer limits, you still have compromise on the splits and 1/2 stops that some players really rely on.

Next, most players giving up on the D10 and C6th, are purchasing S10 or SD10 guitars for E9th and playing most of what they want to play, and all the E9th they already do. There is no telling if any of these players, if they would have shifted to a Universal, wouldn't have that breakthrough moment and truly see the "one big tuning" in front of them and be able to explain it to other players. By shifting to a single 10-string guitar, the option to experiment the possibilities are gone before they start.

What I have been focused on a bit this year is that "one big tuning" mindset, I may even be pulling my Copedent apart to try some things out before the year ends. There is a lack of materials explaining how to make the Universal look that way. Most of that is marketing, why write a book / lessons for Universal and reduce the market you're trying to reach. So, there are a lot of Universal players out there adapting E9th and C6th lessons to their layout. Which by default, puts a wall between the tunings and the Universals possibilities.

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 25 Oct 2021 1:59 pm

Susan Alcorn is breaking some new ground with her 12st set up.

Andrew Frost · Post by **Andrew Frost** » 25 Oct 2021 2:56 pm

Yes, she sure is.

I was listening to an interview with Rich Hinman recently, and he mentioned your name as an early mentor, Bob. I think he's doing some progressive stuff on E9 these days, while still playing within a somewhat traditional framework. That's a tricky balance. You must have steered him right!

Dave Magram · Post by **Dave Magram** » 26 Oct 2021 4:08 pm

Johnny Cox recently posted this impressive YouTube video: D13TH on SD12 MSA Legend, Johnny Cox
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O50XMV0Wbyk
The jazz possibilities start at about 4:30 minutes.
...........................................................
â€¦and he posted this thread explaining the copedent: Final edit D13th S12, Johnny Cox
https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtop ... highlight=

- Dave

Andrew Frost · Post by **Andrew Frost** » 27 Oct 2021 6:11 am

Yes Dave, I agree that's a great demo of Johnny Cox's D13. I'm fascinated with that approach, particularly because it sits right between E & C and functions more or less as a single tuning, as opposed to levering between 6th & 9th modes.

I should mention that I find using the term 'jazz' is going to be inevitably ambiguous. I'm using it in this conversation just to get a picture across in broad strokes...

Some great Bb6 players out there no doubt who are leaning heavily in the jazz direction.

A tuning is just a tuning. But What I'm really interested in with this discussion here is the players who are using E9universal who are really tapping into the B6 area and voicings...It could very well be that we don't come up with many at all, and that's ok. That doesn't negate the validity of the tuning, or the great playing that many are doing on E9uni....

J D Sauser · Post by **J D Sauser** » 27 Oct 2021 8:18 am

Maurice Anderson who came out of 6th-tunings, eventually Bb6th being his "home"-tuning, played essentially 2 guitars for the last 3rd of his career:

- B6th/Eb9th 7&5-S12-"Universal", blonde/brown MSA, with most of the changes towards "Jazz" and basic E9th changes. Like few C6th players, he could do most of the "harmonic" lines off a basic 6th-tuning setup anyways and just needed the "Isaacs"-change to round that up.

- E9th/B6th 7&5-S12 Universal, green/black MSA, with the basic Emmons E9th and most of the standard "C6th" changes in B6th with one "special" pedal.

I've seen him play at the TSGA-show in Dallas in 2000 or 2001 the last time LIVE. He came with "his" own band, it had bass, horns, guitar and possibly a piano player.
The concert was in my opinion one of his finest... basically Bebop or "real" Jazz.
That show is fairly "loose" and I remember John Hughey, Hall Rugg and Bobbe Bowman standing and chit chatting on the rear corner of the stage. Maurice was KNOWN for his chordal work and often referred to as the "The Chord King"... and sure they had heard him all his and their life.
So, Maurice reels of his show and then goes into a chorded solo and I observe as the three go silent and turn over, and just look at him, in total disbelieve, awe and respect. These were MONSTER D10 C6th players!

Well, THAT night, Maurice was playing his green/black E9th/B6th MSA!

Maurice played with 3 finger picks and thumb! He had an intricate knowledge of chords and harmonies and knew which strings exactly to pick. Sometimes constructing chords with 4 carefully selected strings across a 10 string grip width. Evidently he not only knew chords, but how they would become a whole different one against a different bass line. Thus many thought he had "extra Maurice Chords".

Yes, most E9th/B6th Universals are a straight forward E9th with 3 & 5 plus the BASCI 6th changes. And that may look "simple" to many Jazz players that have 5 & 5 on their C6th. What however is often overlooked is, that those who became successful on 12-U realized that not only it is to be used as ONE big tuning and setup, but that you have pretty much everything from "both" sides available from both ends... in other words, an E9th with 7P & 5K and like wise a B6th with 7P and 3K ("only" 3K because one leg is holding the E's down".

Jeff Newman was another great example. His playing was unique, although a bit more "Nashville" centered, but one could never argue that he was missing "a beat". His interpretations were utterly tasteful and technical transitions across all 7 pedals so smooth, you had a hard time telling "where" he was playing when you didn't look.

Rightfully so, someone else mentioned Joe Wright... another one I would dare to say nobody would ever come up to call "short-handed" with his S12U.

3 Finger Picks (since I brought it up):
Is it necessary on a 12U?
I don't think it's any more necessary than as on any C6th 10 string!
I depends on the target playing style.
Artist like Paul Franklin, Buddy Emmons, Curly Chalker and Doug Jernigan (to mention only a very few that have excelled in C6th and are know to play "real" Jazz ("real" as opposed to Western/Big Band Swing and so called "Steel Guitar Swing" which is mostly performed by playing chord solos in pick&rake 4 adjacent string packs)... have used only 2 fingers and a thumb pick.

Yet, when I wondered "how do they get these chords?", Bud Carter just pointed to their right hands... Tom Morrell, Maurice, etc saying "Texas Jazz Players... 3 finger picks!". (evidently Joe Wright is another 3 finger picker).
It took me 3 months to "get over the hill" including the ring-finger. I would never go back, and I now do find SOME, not all... of "them there Chords" that eluded me for so long.
But that's a VERY personal thing, and only a small minority who chose to go down that avenue.

... J-D

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 28 Oct 2021 6:50 am

There's a tiny part of me that wishes I could start my pedal-steel journey all over again. If I could, I'd adopt Johnny Cox' D-13th tuning in a heartbeat, then order me a new MSA appropriately loaded.

His clever concept seems to lack nothing.

Don Griffiths · Post by **Don Griffiths** » 26 Dec 2021 10:28 am

Thanks for asking the question Andrew Frost. I’ve wondered myself why anyone starting out wouldn’t go directly to a U-12. It just seems more efficient time wise to learn one neck than trying to become an expert at both.I finally found a beat up BMI U12 that I could afford,after wanting a U12 for years. I spent Christmas Day taking apart and cleaning the gunk out of everything I comfortably could. I’m sure by all of the beer stains and smoke film I wiped off of the guitar, it has some honky Tonk stories to tell. I don’t know who played and put the miles on it. After restringing and tuning it up I have surmised that some of the B6 pedal copedants don’t match any of the more conventional U12 charts. After hearing Bruce Kaphan’s Slider and reading up on his playing a Williams U12, I knew I wanted one. I don’t have any background with C6 so it will be interesting to see where this goes.

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 26 Dec 2021 11:56 am

Andrew Frost wrote: especially in terms of jazz influenced playing,

Right up there with Maurice Anderson, Christopher Woitach is the deepest current Jazz Steel player that I know of, on his Bb6th S12U. He has posted some of his Jazz Steel playing in the Steel On The Web section and on his Facebook page.
Before covid he played Live Jazz Pedal Steel with his Jazz Quartet at a local club here in Portland.

I myself have been playing Traditional Country, Country Rock, Jam Band, Western Swing, Travis/Atkins style, One Big Tuning, etc, for 40 years on Jeff Newman and Joe Wright style S12U.

Mark van Allen · Post by **Mark van Allen** » 26 Dec 2021 4:26 pm

Barry Sless (Moonalice, David Nelson band, etc.) has been deeply mining his 12 string tuning for years.

Andrew Frost · Post by **Andrew Frost** » 28 Dec 2021 1:28 pm

Thanks for the added perspectives, folks. Pete, yes Christopher is a fantastic musician. I sometimes tune into his silver lining duo live streams when I can on Thursdays, straight from the facebooks. Excellent stuff.

Congrats and good luck with the MSA, Don! Sounds like you have a great journey ahead of you. I love that Bruce Kaphan record. Funny, I always just figured he was playing C6 and E9!

Christopher Woitach · Post by **Christopher Woitach** » 29 Dec 2021 10:11 pm

Hey!

Thanks, Pete and Andrew, for the kind words - it means a lot to me!

I’ve done some recording sessions where I got the call because they wanted “out of box” steel, not necessarily jazz, but necessarily not classic E9. When doing this stuff, I really find myself using the “one big tuning” mindset, more than anything else. The combination of the closer E9ish intervals and the wider 6th tuning intervals really makes it sound different, definitely steel guitar, but different, somehow.

Cool thread!

John Sims · Post by **John Sims** » 30 Jan 2022 9:23 am

Don Griffiths wrote:Thanks for asking the question Andrew Frost. I’ve wondered myself why anyone starting out wouldn’t go directly to a U-12. It just seems more efficient time wise to learn one neck than trying to become an expert at both.I finally found a beat up BMI U12 that I could afford,after wanting a U12 for years. I spent Christmas Day taking apart and cleaning the gunk out of everything I comfortably could. I’m sure by all of the beer stains and smoke film I wiped off of the guitar, it has some honky Tonk stories to tell. I don’t know who played and put the miles on it. After restringing and tuning it up I have surmised that some of the B6 pedal copedants don’t match any of the more conventional U12 charts. After hearing Bruce Kaphan’s Slider and reading up on his playing a Williams U12, I knew I wanted one. I don’t have any background with C6 so it will be interesting to see where this goes.

Don,

I started on a U-12, JD Sauser's old Carter U-12 to be exact. I am so happy that I did! It's a great tuning for beginners and I am finally getting to learn the "non-E9th" part of it. Best decision I've ever made. Thanks JD!

J D Sauser · Post by **J D Sauser** » 15 Feb 2022 9:26 pm

John Sims wrote:
Don Griffiths wrote:Thanks for asking the question Andrew Frost. I’ve wondered myself why anyone starting out wouldn’t go directly to a U-12. It just seems more efficient time wise to learn one neck than trying to become an expert at both.I finally found a beat up BMI U12 that I could afford,after wanting a U12 for years. I spent Christmas Day taking apart and cleaning the gunk out of everything I comfortably could. I’m sure by all of the beer stains and smoke film I wiped off of the guitar, it has some honky Tonk stories to tell. I don’t know who played and put the miles on it. After restringing and tuning it up I have surmised that some of the B6 pedal copedants don’t match any of the more conventional U12 charts. After hearing Bruce Kaphan’s Slider and reading up on his playing a Williams U12, I knew I wanted one. I don’t have any background with C6 so it will be interesting to see where this goes.
Don,

I started on a U-12, JD Sauser's old Carter U-12 to be exact. I am so happy that I did! It's a great tuning for beginners and I am finally getting to learn the "non-E9th" part of it. Best decision I've ever made. Thanks JD!

MAN! I just only today... well TONIGHT, looking at your picture realized "Hot Dawg! That's MY ol' BirdsEye!"
I'm glad you stuck with'er, happy both... so much, I see, there were "Babies" too.

Well, I guess, NOW I am "old", "rich" and yes, outright eccentric after all! You predicted it, I guess it was you.

... J-D.

John Sims · Post by **John Sims** » 16 Feb 2022 8:05 am

Yes JD, It's been a great guitar and I finally have been able to get that much elusive tone. This was a great build by Carter! It sure is beautiful...I hope all is well my friend!