Carter or GFI student models?

Mark Treepaz · Post by **Mark Treepaz** » 26 Aug 2006 9:03 am

I could use some advice and feedback please...

I'm a non-pedal player who's now ready to start moving over to Pedal Steel. With regard to an entry-level (a.k.a student model) guitar, I've been looking at both the Carter "Starter" model (3x4) as well as a GFI Student Model (3x2).

As I progress I will be using my "student" pedal steel guitar on gigs during my learning process.

Any recommendations as to which guitar is better (for the learning period)? Are there any other entry level models I should looking into? I'm currently leaning toward the Carter. Yes? No?

Thanks in advance.[This message was edited by Mark Trzepacz on 26 August 2006 at 10:06 AM.]

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 26 Aug 2006 10:05 am

the advantage of having 3+4 over 3+2 allows the player to grow into changes instead of having to add them later or perhaps change guitars to get them.

I cannot comment on the GFI and suspect it is a fine student Steel..but I can comment on the ability to have a few extra CHANGES TO GROW INTO..

Biggest problem in the past with the early Sho-Bud 3+1 Mavericks is that once you get a bit comfortable with the AB Peds and a few basic BC PEDS phrases you were now stuck with the single lever which usually dropped the 2nd string.

I suspect most of us outgrew the Maverick style 3+1 in a 6 month time window..

good luck

t

Mike Perlowin · Post by **Mike Perlowin** » 26 Aug 2006 10:15 am

Tony is absolutely right.

I read about the E to F lever 2 weeks after I started playing, and as soon as I did, I wanted to use it, and the maverick I was borrowing didn't have it.

The fact that the Carter Starter has 4 knee levers makes it the best student guitar ever built. It has my highest recommendation.

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 26 Aug 2006 10:53 am

Correct. As it is, if you stick with pedal steel, you'll be buying a pro model sooner or later anyway, with at least 4 knee levers on it, so you sure don't want to have to upgrade to a second student model first!

Rodney Garrison · Post by **Rodney Garrison** » 26 Aug 2006 11:32 am

My Carter Starter was one of my best purchases ever. I used it for 3 or 4 years before stepping up to a pro model. You won't be sorry. RG

Alan Brookes · Post by **Alan Brookes** » 26 Aug 2006 5:53 pm

After buying a Sho-Bud Crossover about 6 weeks ago I put my Carter Starter into storage, together with a whole bunch of lap steels. I was never very impressed with the Carter. The pedals look like left-over L bar. The pedal bar bent every time I depressed the pedals. I thought the tone problem was me but it went away when I bought a decent instrument.

I had to buy the extender leg set to get my knees under the body. But it stayed in tune, I'll give it that.[This message was edited by Alan F. Brookes on 26 August 2006 at 06:55 PM.]

Micky Byrne · Post by **Micky Byrne** » 27 Aug 2006 12:55 am

I agree with Mike. If only my first steels when I started playing steel in 1970 had 3 and 4. The early "student" guitars "never" had them on....they had to be added at great cost. 3 and 4 will get you all the way till you know the instrument well enough and want to venture to a more Pro model. In this respect on the guitars, I'd personally go for Carter if I were starting out because of what it has on it. And also the fact that my main gigging guitar now "is" a Carter (universal 7 and 5), I can vouch for the mechanical reliability and their tone.

Micky Byrne www.mickybyrne.com [This message was edited by Micky Byrne on 27 August 2006 at 01:58 AM.][This message was edited by Micky Byrne on 27 August 2006 at 02:00 AM.]

Ernie Pollock · Post by **Ernie Pollock** » 27 Aug 2006 4:18 am

The GFI is much more stable than the Starter, built with much stronger parts, the GFI is available with up to 4 knee levers, I usually have a couple of Economys with 3&3. The sound on the GFI Economy is much like there Pro model & uses the same GFI Pickup.

Ernie

http://www.hereintown.net/~shobud75/stock.htm

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Sonny Priddy · Post by **Sonny Priddy** » 27 Aug 2006 5:48 am

GFI. Any Time. SONNY.

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Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 27 Aug 2006 7:10 am

The issue is really not "GFI" vs "Carter". The issue is 2 KLs vs. 4 KLs. If you were looking at a GFI with 4 KLs, it might be a different story, but since the GFI in question has only 2KLs, Carter with 4KLs wins, hands down.

Robert Porri · Post by **Robert Porri** » 27 Aug 2006 8:24 am

Mark,

I have a GFI (not the student model). I did see one when I was looking a few years ago. I didn't know anything, but it looked pretty nice, and I've read a lot of good things about them. I played a Carter Starter quite a bit during lessons. The sound of the Carter Starter seemed OK, but to me, the pedals and knee levers felt very much like a student model. I don't think that is the case with the GFI. It would probably cost $400 more (over the Carter Starter) for the GFI to be set up with 4 knee levers, but if spending a little more is an option, it think it would be worth it. If you can catch GFI at a PSG show, you would probably also be able to get a show discount. With the GFI I think you'd have an instrument that would get you through more years. (But you absolutely should add the extra 2 knee levers.)

Something else to consider. A used Carter Starter could be a bargain, and you could sell it in a year when you want something better probably for what you paid. A used pro model Carter or pro model GFI could be a bargain also.

Bob P.

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 27 Aug 2006 8:32 am

Jim,
Have you played both guitars ? As far as I can tell there are some important differences that could effect ones choice beyond the amount of levers.

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Bob
upcoming gigs
My Website

Mark Treepaz · Post by **Mark Treepaz** » 27 Aug 2006 9:20 am

Thanks for all the feedback and advice. Also, for the PM's. You've all been extremely helpful.

What I think I'm going to do is look for more of a pro model. Either used or lower end new, taking in consideration the amount of knee levers etc. as you've suggested. Hopefully I'll be able to find something affordable.

With regard to trying out the guitars...Here in Western New York there is no place (that I know of) that sells steel guitars, much less have them on display. Therfore, trying them out isn't a luxury here.

Thanks again for all of the help!

Micky Byrne · Post by **Micky Byrne** » 27 Aug 2006 11:22 am

Well said Jim on your second entry on this particular topic. It's not a contest at all!!!

Micky Byrne www.mickybyrne.com [This message was edited by Micky Byrne on 29 August 2006 at 11:32 AM.]

Larry Robbins · Post by **Larry Robbins** » 27 Aug 2006 11:33 am

MArk,
Her is my 2cents. I had a GFI student. Nice "starter" as I am sure the Carter is as well! Forget both of them, spend just a few more dollars( youll have to soon anyway) and buy a Pro model. I look at it this way: if you dont get into it and stay with it, you can get most of your money back. If you get into it and have bought a "starter" inst. it will be only a short matter of time untill you want to move up to a "full fledged" model. Why wait? You know you want one deep down! HEHEHEHEHE!
See, steel guitar is pretty cut and dry HUH?

Good Luck.[This message was edited by Larry Robbins on 27 August 2006 at 12:34 PM.][This message was edited by Larry Robbins on 27 August 2006 at 12:45 PM.]

Mark Treepaz · Post by **Mark Treepaz** » 27 Aug 2006 5:06 pm

Larry;
That's exactly what I was thinking (see my previous post). Also, it isn't matter of staying with it or not. As I've been playing non-pedal for some time now, I'm already "hooked". It's just that I want to add PSG to my arsenal. (You're right. There are more than a couple of nice pro model guitars out there that really make me "want to"!)

Mickey;
I never thought of it as a "contest" (i.e. Ford vs. Chevy). I was just interested in quality issues regarding one student model as opposed to another. As being new to the pedal end of steelin', I hadn't known enough to give much thought to the importance of having more or less knee levers & pedals for the learning process. Thanks to the feedback I had received here and through private emails, I have become much more educated toward my process of bridging the gap from non-pedal to pedal steel.

Thanks again to all those who contributed all the useful information.[This message was edited by Mark Trzepacz on 27 August 2006 at 06:07 PM.]p>[This message was edited by Mark Trzepacz on 27 August 2006 at 06:39 PM.]

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 28 Aug 2006 12:12 am

the question refers to a student Steel with 3+2 or 3+4.

period.

Not a PRO Steel , any PRO Steel , compared to a Starter.

Also keep in mind we all read a thread just last week where one of our beloved purchased an old SHO-BUD, took it to a gig...and ..uhh.. couldn't play it...

That doesn't mean he can't play it at some point in the near future, just that he couldn't the day he purchased it.

a student has enough to worry about..don't send em' home with yet another dilema..

t[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 28 August 2006 at 01:16 AM.]

John Poston · Post by **John Poston** » 28 Aug 2006 7:49 am

They will add 2 extra knees to a GFI student model, if I'm not mistaken.

Ben Jones · Post by **Ben Jones** » 28 Aug 2006 8:11 am

regarding 2 knees vs 4, Im on month 9 and only know two licks with the right knees...but i am glad they are there for me to grow into (anyone got any right knee licks to share with me?). You cannot add or change much on the starter but you shouldnt really need to for a long long while.

I think your on the right track tho going with a non student model. Its an investment for sure, but it pays dividends. I play this guitar every single day...i dont carew if I ever make a penny playing it but someday who knows.its already more than payed for itself tho. it makes me happy...thats priceless (to me anyway).

Mark Treepaz · Post by **Mark Treepaz** » 28 Aug 2006 8:46 am

Thanks Ben.

BTW, What make/model guitar are you playing?

Calvin Walley · Post by **Calvin Walley** » 28 Aug 2006 4:36 pm

a pro model sure made learning a lot easier for me , i have had a total of 3 student models. a sho-bud, a carter and a zum the zum was hands down the best of the 3 however the mullen pro model i have now is still a lot easier to learn on than any of them

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Mullen SD-10 3&5 / nashville 400

Mickey McGee · Post by **Mickey McGee** » 28 Aug 2006 4:49 pm

Mark,maybe you should think about a used pro single neck guitar which you will get in a 3x4 or 3x5 and will last for many years.

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Mark Treepaz · Post by **Mark Treepaz** » 29 Aug 2006 3:00 am

Mickey;
As a matter of fact that's what I'm doing.

I've got my eye on two at the moment. A Sho-Bud LDG S-10 (3&4) and a MSA Classic S-10 (3&4). I'm leaning toward the Sho-Bud.

From what I read here on the forum, I'm assuming that the Sho-Bud is an extremely heavy guitar (weight wise)?

Mark Treepaz · Post by **Mark Treepaz** » 29 Aug 2006 5:59 am

Well, I went and did it...

I bought a SHO-BUD LDG, S-10DB w/pad, 3&4, Green Lacquer, all original, rack & barrel system, w/stock S-B pickups.

I had to get one with the pad so I'll have someplace to bang my head against when I hear myself play!

At least with this guitar, I'll have complete confidence that when it sounds rotten, it'll be my playing and not the guitars fault!

[This message was edited by Mark Trzepacz on 29 August 2006 at 07:02 AM.]

Kyle Everson · Post by **Kyle Everson** » 29 Aug 2006 9:08 am

Good choice, Mark. I too bought a pro Sho Bud as my starter, and I was using all the knee levers in no time. Those LDG's are great, too. Hope you enjoy it.

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Kyle Everson
Sho-Bud Pro-II
Fender Twin Reverb
Goodrich 120