Looking for perfect double duty amp

Ben Carbone · Post by **Ben Carbone** » 24 Nov 2021 6:12 am

This is probably the hardest and most asked steel gear question of all time. I am looking for the perfect amp to use for pedal steel and guitar, that is 50lbs or under. The vibrasonic is the perfect configuration with the 1x15 and two channels with separate volume and EQ, but it's too darn heavy. I live in an apartment and my goal is to be able to make it to the car in one trip (extra drum throne will live in the trunk). I want loud clean for steel but tube tone for guitar. I think if the Milkman The Amp 100w had two separate input channels that would be my answer, but sadly that's not the case.

If anyone has this figured out please let me know!

Karl Paulsen · Post by **Karl Paulsen** » 24 Nov 2021 6:47 am

Tonemaster Twin?

Charlie Thompson · Post by **Charlie Thompson** » 24 Nov 2021 7:01 am

+1 Tonemaster Twin. Also check Milkman. Tim can build you a 2 channel amp to your specifications.

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 24 Nov 2021 7:13 am

I don't know about 'perfect', and it all depends on how much clean steel volume you need and what kind of sound you want for guitar. If you play mostly with a fairly clean baseline, some solid-state amps can work fine, especially if you have an overdrive/distortion pedal on a pedalboard. If you don't need a ton of volume, mid-power Fenders can work fine - Deluxe/Vibrolux/Super/Pro - but Deluxes run out of gas relatively early and Super/Pro isn't exactly light.

I use my Quilter Tone Block 201 for both guitar and steel quite a bit. I got the 201 because it was inexpensive, but I'm sure the 202 is great. Weighs around 4 pounds, I have some lightweight neo 1-12" cabs that I can use one or two of, depending on the situation. I just dial them in slightly differently for guitar vs. pedal steel, I can do it on the fly as I'm changing guitars between songs.

I just stated this on Karl's thread about cheap rigs, but I have found if I don't need mondo steel volume/headroom, a Peavey Bandit 65 or Studio Pro 40/50 work fine for me for both guitar and steel. I specifically like the Bandit 65 and Studio Pro 40/50. I see Bandits in the $100 range periodically, and I got my Studio Pro 40/50s for $35 and $45 respectively off Craigslist. I bought the 40 specifically for the early 60s Jensen the guy put in it that I took out and used for an old tube amp. I was just gonna dump the amp. But I put in a $50 70-watt MOD speaker in it, sounds great. The 50 has the original Eminence (circa 1987) 20-oz magnet speaker in it. It also sounds great. And shockingly good for Telecaster, which is what I assume they were designed for - 80s Nashville sound. And they can get warm-sounding - I always assumed the "Saturation" control was more or less a gimmick. But if you just dial in a bit, like 1-3 on the dial with Pre-gain set for a fairly clean sound - maybe 3-4 - they will get a pretty damned nice on-the-edge-of-breakup sound. Jack Sondermeyer knew what he was doing. I have to dial the tone controls in a bit differently - bass up, mid and treble down - the mid especially is very sensitive in the 0-3 range. I imagine a lot of players find these honky because they can get pretty "Boogie-honky" with the midrange up. Boogies were all the rage back then.

I didn't get into Twin Reverbs since you said <50 pounds. But that is probably the best all-around loud amp for guitar and steel I've played. You might be able to get it into a reasonable but not light weight range with either a 2-12" or 1-15" neo speaker setup. I have pondered doing that with one of my Twin Reverbs.

I imagine the Tonemaster amps sound OK, but I worry about long-term reliability and especially repair-ability. I think self- or local repair is gonna be much tougher with this kind of stuff. That is probably an issue with any of the modern Class D amps, including the Quilters. But I guess I'm of the view that I'm gonna be a lot less bummed if a $250 4-pound amp bites the dust than a $1K large amp does the same.

Karl Paulsen · Post by **Karl Paulsen** » 24 Nov 2021 7:56 am

Ben, if you're near Chicago, there's several Bandit's and a Pacer on Craigslist right now. The Pacer for $125 is particularly tempting -especially since someone else on craigslist is selling a 12" scorpion- but I've already got a Reno and Vegas...

For your use though, a Bandit might be a better choice of the two since it has more watts and a lead channel.

What kind of budget are you working with?

Dave Mudgett wrote:
I was just gonna dump the amp. But I put in a $50 70-watt MOD speaker in it, sounds great.

Which speakers are those? Curious...

Karl Paulsen · Post by **Karl Paulsen** » 24 Nov 2021 8:09 am

Charlie Thompson wrote:+1 Tonemaster Twin. Also check Milkman. Tim can build you a 2 channel amp to your specifications.

I wonder what would be the wider appeal of a 2 channel Half and Half?

Sort of a high-end Vegas 400 for those who are willing to spend more up front to pay less later to a chiropractor.

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 24 Nov 2021 8:17 am

Define Perfect ! LOL !

Double duty for me starts with an amp for the Telecaster, not the Steel. I have learned over the last 50 years that every gig is not equal. Various gigs, rooms , stages may demand a different amp. Not every gig requires a Twin reverb but every gig can employ a Twin Reverb.

And they are not too loud, thats a user option. For me, I played gigs, stages and rooms from NY to Boston for 20 years with the same 1970 Twin Reverb for double duty. For much of that time it was the only amp I owned . Was it perfect ? Can't say , never thought of it that way. But it did what it was supposed to do for over 25 years . Clean Tele and Clean Steel.

I don't own a Twin Reverb today, but if I have to play a larger stage double duty, I'll pull out the late 90's 2x12 Hot Rod Deville. Its close.

Tone Masters do not have an EXT speaker jack, which for me is a mandatory element for a modern era double duty stage amp .

I don't think there is a perfect amp but there are preferred amps !

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 24 Nov 2021 12:34 pm

Karl Paulsen wrote:
Dave Mudgett wrote: I was just gonna dump the amp. But I put in a $50 70-watt MOD speaker in it, sounds great.
Which speakers are those? Curious...

Jensen MOD12-70 speakers - https://www.jensentone.com/mod-series/mod-12-70.

Actually, the normal street price is $70, but I got them at Antique Electronic Supply - https://www.tubesandmore.com/products/s ... d12-70-70w - when they were doing a BOGO sale - they wound up $70 for two, crazy!

These are sort of in between a Twin Reverb and Marshall style speaker. I think AES's description is pretty accurate - tighter bottom end than an old Jensen C12N, but not a strident as, let's say, a Celestion. Certainly couldn't argue for the money. I also got a pair of MOD 50-watt 10" speakers, sort of in the same wheelhouse but 10". Those were $48 for two! I like them in a Princeton Reverb, and I'm sure they'd be great in my little Peavey Backstage Plus, which I leave at the rehearsal space.

Don Downes · Post by **Don Downes** » 24 Nov 2021 1:08 pm

There is no "perfect sound". Whatever you may think is the best sound YOU have ever heard, the producer may have other ideas. In most (ALL) cases, the producer wins.

In a live situation, your perfect sound may not be what the FOH mixer wants for the room. If there's a backline and it's wire and fire, you really have no choice.

Make the best sound on stage that you can hear from your gear. Let everyone else worry about everything else. If it sounds great to you on stage, you will play better, especially with a good monitor mix.

AND, IMHO, 15s are for bass players only. No place for them anywhere over 500Hz.

Karl Paulsen · Post by **Karl Paulsen** » 24 Nov 2021 1:38 pm

Dave Mudgett wrote:
Karl Paulsen wrote:
Dave Mudgett wrote: I was just gonna dump the amp. But I put in a $50 70-watt MOD speaker in it, sounds great.
Which speakers are those? Curious...
Jensen MOD12-70 speakers - https://www.jensentone.com/mod-series/mod-12-70.

Actually, the normal street price is $70, but I got them at Antique Electronic Supply - https://www.tubesandmore.com/products/s ... d12-70-70w - when they were doing a BOGO sale - they wound up $70 for two, crazy!

These are sort of in between a Twin Reverb and Marshall style speaker. I think AES's description is pretty accurate - tighter bottom end than an old Jensen C12N, but not a strident as, let's say, a Celestion. Certainly couldn't argue for the money. I also got a pair of MOD 50-watt 10" speakers, sort of in the same wheelhouse but 10". Those were $48 for two! I like them in a Princeton Reverb, and I'm sure they'd be great in my little Peavey Backstage Plus, which I leave at the rehearsal space.

Thanks Dave!

John Ducsai · Post by **John Ducsai** » 24 Nov 2021 6:08 pm

Have a look at the Rivera Sedona 55. It has a nice Blackface Fender sounding channel and a channel with more gain if needed, but also cleans up some. It also can be used with acoustic guitars and has provisions for Taylor's ES balanced system. Effects send/return and buffered direct out.
If find the clean channel very good for PSG.
Only bad thing I can say is they're not cheap...

https://www.rivera.com/product/combos/sedona-55/

John D

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 25 Nov 2021 12:15 am

Hey - an amp I didn't think of but I use for double-duty is a circa 1982-83 Fender Concert 112. This is a Paul Rivera era amp, around 60 watts - http://www.thevintagesound.com/ffg/concert_II.html

I believe they came with EV Force speakers (Fender labeled), and are pretty heavy like that. I picked up one of these cheap off Craigslist in Nashville a few years ago. These have gone up in recent years, but I think can still be found reasonable if you look hard. This one had a really heavy but off-brand speaker. Sounded fine but it was pushing Twin Reverb territory weight-wise, so I stuck in a 12" Furlong neo speaker. I like the sound and that really got the weight down to a reasonable range, if not exactly light. But it has a pretty classic old-school silverface Fender type of sound. I believe these were the last of the original hand-wired Fenders made before CBS sold the company.

These had a boost circuit, much like the Deluxe II and Super Champs of that era had. Sort of a Boogie inspired thing. Can be made useful with judicious knob-twiddling and maybe some tweaking - I think I stuck in a slightly lower-gain tube in that section to try to get more control of the gain. But I generally just use the clean channel and push with a Dumble-style overdrive pedal like the Simble if I need more gain.

Jon Light · Post by **Jon Light** » 25 Nov 2021 4:21 am

Quilter has already been mentioned but let me throw a new candidate into the ring.
My steel playing almost qualifies as 'double duty' -- sometimes I am playing traditional-style pedal steel and sometimes I am playing it like a guitar, booth rhythm guitar and lead.
My gigging rig for three years has been a Micro Pro Mach 2 HD12 and a large pedal board. Wonderful amp.
I'm always looking for....something.... I tried a TT12 combo. Good but it didn't satisfy me.

I am right now 2 days in with their newest offering, an Aviator Mach 3. So far, I am digging it A LOT. It is basically two identical channels loaded with switchable features including independent master volumes. With a 6 switch switcher (I've got the Steelaire leg-mounted toggles as opposed to the floor pedal) you have two amps in one. I believe 'it was meant to be' because right when FedEx delivered it, someone was at the house buying the TT12. Balanced universe, Even Steven.
I'll need some playing time and some speaker break-in time before I'm ready to declare it better than sliced bread but I am very excited at the moment.

https://www.quilterlabs.com/index.php/p ... h-3-combo/

Tommy Detamore · Post by **Tommy Detamore** » 25 Nov 2021 5:24 am

I will second what my friend John Light says about the Mach 3. Itâ€™s a killer amp that works for both guitar and steel. VERY versatile, and the fact that the head can be easily removed and used with other speaker cabinets is a real plus.

Normally you could buy just the head portion too if desired but they are currently on back order. (Yes Iâ€™m a dealer but this is not â€œsalesman-speakâ€).

This is a 200-watt amp so itâ€™s gig-ready, but it can effectively be attenuated for home use using the output control (rated in watts).

The Aviator Cub is a great dual-purpose amp for low-volume gigs and home use. Itâ€™s only a single-channel amp but it will work for both steel and guitar if you donâ€™t mind some knob-tweaking.

And both amps are ridiculously light and compact!

Jon Light · Post by **Jon Light** » 25 Nov 2021 5:34 am

Tommy Detamore wrote:
And both amps are ridiculously light and compact!

My Mach 3 12" combo is lighter than my Micro Pro! 21 lbs! This is ridiculous. The discovery of anti-gravity is apparently one of the best kept secrets in the universe!
I am waiting for the speaker to break in to see if it tames the highs although the SG Black Box Vari-Z is perfect for tailoring this. It's not so much that it's shrill or paint peeling. More of a balance thing.

John Talbott · Post by **John Talbott** » 25 Nov 2021 12:49 pm

You may want to look at the Peavey Special 130. Weighs approx 47lbs. It has 130 watts and a shiftable mid. There are more than a few postings about suitability for steel guitar. Link for specs -
https://peavey.com/manuals/80343010.pdf

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 26 Nov 2021 1:01 am

There is an issue with asking for the perfect Double Duty amp

My own experiences

1) we all like to dial in a similar clean tone for our Steel Guitars.

2) We are not consistent with what we desire for guitar tones, I may think I have the perfect Tele tone while someone else may want something totally different. The problem with Double Duty amps is NOT the Steel .

My most recent outings for double duty, #1) due to the room and floor space I settled on a small DV 45 watt Little Jazz 12 amp which was fine for Steel and acceptable for the Tele, but I didn't play much guitar on that gig, maybe 4 songs in 2 sets, I was primarily on Steel, so I compromised. The other recent regular double duty gig I carried two amps, a Nashville 112 and a Blues Jr. That was a 3 set gig and I probably fronted and played Tele on a dozen or more songs. No compromise required !

I no longer own a Twin Reverb or a Hot Rod Deluxe, which I believe lacks headroom for the Steel but is nice for the Tele. I could have carried a Hot Rod Deville but decided on the smaller lighter amps . I still own a late 90's Hot Rod Deville but it has not seen gig duty in quite a while. Maybe I'll drag it out for the 2022 Spring + Summer Festivals we are already scheduled to play. But Geesh the older I get the heavier that amp gets !!

If I was younger and still Double Duty active I would grab an early 70's SF Pro Reverb. I believe these are a nice compromise for a small to moderate room plus they have the necessary MID control in the Tone Stack. But , be that as it may, I find myself on Tele only and have been since the demise of my double duty gigs back in March of 2020. So I can just "grab and go" any of the amps I have, from the Katana 50 to the Dr Z Maz 38 . The Stage and ROOM dictate which one goes for a ride. I will say this about the Katana 50 for guitar, I fought these amps for quite a bit , but for a small room, small footprint low volume gig, ( duo or trio) it performs.

I only use it in the CLEAN MODE and never use the on board programmable effects and stuff.

Brett Lanier · Post by **Brett Lanier** » 26 Nov 2021 5:45 am

Such an amp does exist, but they're rare and expensive. I have a 50L15 that I was able to find for considerably less... Not sure how much they weigh but it's nothing like picking up a twin.

https://reverb.com/item/43990832-1960-s ... super-rare

Norbert Dengler · Post by **Norbert Dengler** » 26 Nov 2021 12:00 pm

tonemaster deluxe or twin

Ben Carbone · Post by **Ben Carbone** » 27 Nov 2021 6:50 am

Thanks for all of the responses, I am thankful for this forum and community!

Tony Prior summed up the issue with double duty opinions since we all probably have very different taste in guitar tones. I actually rarely play double duty on country gigs, so for that I don't mind bringing out my Session 400. I play a lot of singer/songwriter rock stuff of my own and other folks' - I can never find any youtube amp reviews for off-the-beaten-path amps that aren't shredding lead guitar.

I have a hot rod deluxe laying around I might have modded to have separate volume controls for each channel or at least look into that option, but I always feel it sounds far too "guitary" with steel. The irony of all of this is, when you show up to play with most non-steel players, they think everything sounds great

but like everything else, the devil is in the details.

Per Berner · Post by **Per Berner** » 27 Nov 2021 10:04 am

Tonemaster Twin! I've had mine for little over a month and it's perfect for steel and 6-string guitar alike. Full power for max headroom plus cutting the midrange a couple of extra dBs with a Boss GE-7 for pedal steel, one of the lower power settings for Telecaster (still loud!).

Dale Foreman · Post by **Dale Foreman** » 27 Nov 2021 2:18 pm

Peavey Vegas! Best double duty amp there is!

Karl Paulsen · Post by **Karl Paulsen** » 27 Nov 2021 5:08 pm

Dale Foreman wrote:Peavey Vegas! Best double duty amp there is!

I was going to suggest the same, but it's closer to 70 pounds than 50.

Ken Pippus · Post by **Ken Pippus** » 27 Nov 2021 6:16 pm

Have the Eminence neo 15â€ in my Vegas, which makes lifting it less excruciating!

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 28 Nov 2021 2:01 am

Tonemasters are a nice Fender offering but NOT the perfect utility solution for double duty, especially to those who may desire or REQUIRE an ext speaker.

"Perfect" is just a PHRASE !

Guitar players who love TUBE SAG or gentle natural break up have a totally different opinion of PERFECT !

Its quite a dilemma

!

Apparently for near 6 decades , amp builders have been trying to create a more perfect Twin Reverb , even Fender !

"This ones much more prefect than the TR"

Its possible we should be asking which is a better "utility compromise" for DOUBLE DUTY

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