12 strings?

[Charley Paul]

Hi friends,

I was playing psg with a friend who is an acoustic guitar player. It was a nice combo, but I found myself wishing I had a few lower strings (like on the c6 neck) to fill out the sound. For my 12 string playing friends, do you find those extra low notes useful in a full band situation? Or does it overlap with the bassist too much?

I’m inclined to believe that those low strings will sound great when there isn’t a bass player, but would overlap too much with the bass in a band situation. Any truth to this thinking?

[John Larson]

Yes, as I understand that's why the range of the E9 neck is such to sonically stay out of the territory of the other string instruments be it bass or electric guitar. Extended E9 seems to work best in situations where the instrumentation is sparse, ie acoustic guitar and steel. Eric Heywood's work with Jeffrey Foucault is a good example of this style.

[Jamie Mitchell]

For whatever it's worth, I use a 10 string setup where the bottom two strings are E and B. So, I lose the D string (though I have it on a change, I don't use it very much). The big advantage to this is that I have a power chord, 151, right in a row, so I can play the whole thing with a thumb stroke, like a guitarist would. I can also play the Chuck Berry type rhythm stuff like this. With a 12 string setup, you don't have this ability (I believe).
I find that very useful. That trade off might not be worth it for many players, but it's important for me and the music I play. So, that's worth a shot!

[Dave Hopping]

My U-12 has a whole-step raise on the 12th string (P1), a half-step raise on the 10th(P2), and a step+1/2 raise on the 9th(RKR) so it all acts as an extended E9. One does have to be sparing with the low notes, but they can be pretty cool in the right place.

One thing I have found is that when I was playing 10 string I avoided that 9th string like it was a third rail, but since I can now call it in with a knee lever I've been finding all kinds of places for that dominant 7th. I've been thinking about seeing if my old-but-uber-cool Mullen S110 can be modded to 10 string extended E9.

[K Maul]

I like the low notes. Tom Brumley had an 11 string with just low E added, as did Al Perkins. Just because you have those low notes you don’t need to use them constantly. It’s called “taste”.
I have the D on one guitar and not on another, except on a knee lever. I like having the unobstructed B6 chord when I lower my Es.
Some people use it a LOT to form chords two frets above the base tuning and are lost without it. I’m not that sophisticated.

[Pete Burak]

The low notes on S12U are a great extension of the E9th tuning. Many uses for both E9 and B6.

[b0b]

I have a hard time comping rhythm if I don't at least have a low E.

[Pete Burak]

I would say, unless the Bass player is telling you that you are in his lane, you are fine.
If there is no Bass player, you can play basic Country style alternating Bass if/as needed.
The low notes really open up the E9th world of Travis/Atkins style pickin', also.

[Hugo Knef]

I run a low e .48 on 10. B on 9 with raise on knee to d. And raise f# to g# on 7. Super fat low end on the wound strings when you want to play guitar riffs. Same range as a guitar. And I never hit the d string on accident lol. For my rock and blues style this copedant really makes sense. But I’m an intermediate hack so I’m sure I’m doing it wrong.

[Chris Brooks]

Great topic, Charley.

I run an extended E9 with my lowest E capable of going down to C# (on the E to F lever, BTW).

I am coming to love the low range of the PSG, the 'baritone' range, the 'cello' range. These days I am trying to run scales and play melodies on these lowest strings. A simple melody emerging from the lower 5 string cluster sounds cool! And different! It's not that old steel sound again, whining up in the high register (though I bow before the avatar of John Hughey :>) )

Yes, you don't want to cross wires with the bass player.

A jazz/Americana group I play with has guitar, bass, drums, steel. So when the guitar is soloing, I can play chords on the low strings and thus stay out of his range.

True, intervals among that low-5-cluster are different and must be practiced. Just another fascinating area of this instrument.

Chris

[Ian Rae]

One does have to be sparing with the low notes, but they can be pretty cool in the right place.

I wouldn't be without them. I haven't had a bass player complain yet

[Charley Paul]

This is really helpful info. I am really intrigued by the 12 string, extended E9 setup. I currently have a Mullen RP D10, and I really love it, even though I don’t really use the back neck. I had thought about selling it, but I’m realizing that I should just get a second guitar. I’ve had a few that I’ve been close to buying, but have not moved on one yet.


I’m starting to think that an SD12 might be a good choice, so as not to overlap with what I already have, and fulfill a different purpose. I think I’ll probably stay with the standard E9 with a full band, but maybe try an sd12 for smaller combos where those bass notes can really fill out the sound…

[b0b]

Great topic, Charley.

I run an extended E9 with my lowest E capable of going down to C# (on the E to F lever, BTW).
[...]
A jazz/Americana group I play with has guitar, bass, drums, steel. So when the guitar is soloing, I can play chords on the low strings and thus stay out of his range.

True, that. In a quartet, you have to cover the guitarist's rhythm parts when he's soloing. It also helps with arranging if both instruments have the same low range - at least down to E!

I did that same Extended E9th thing with the "F" lever lower for 30 years. Played in a lot of quartets. No complaints from the bass players.

[Fred Treece]

I started playing 12-string E9 two years ago and I’m not looking back. I have especially found a brave new world in string 11-G#.

I think the thing that bugs bass players is not so much the range of lower strings on guitars as it is the tone. If you overload the bass control on your amp and boom the crap out of your lower strings, you’re robbing the bass player of his sonic space. Conversely, if the bass player insists on bumping up the amp’s midrange control and playing in the upper register, then it’s time to have a chat.

[Pete Burak]

I started playing 12-string E9 two years ago and I’m not looking back. I have especially found a brave new world in string 11-G#.

I think the thing that bugs bass players is not so much the range of lower strings on guitars as it is the tone. If you overload the bass control on your amp and boom the crap out of your lower strings, you’re robbing the bass player of his sonic space. Conversely, if the bass player insists on bumping up the amp’s midrange control and playing in the upper register, then it’s time to have a chat.

Time to have a chat...
Love it!
For me the chat usually goes... (me to Bass player who is now playing lead Bass)... Can you please play half as many notes, an Octave lower???

[Jon Snyder]

......, then it’s time to have a chat.

Badaboom there it is. Also, I'm kinda changing my idea to learn on a 12 string instead of a 10 string as I will never play outside the house and the low notes would be good to have.

[Chris Brooks]

Jon, if you do go to an extended E9, make sure your low G# string (string 11) is hooked up to raise to an A along with your other 2 G#s.

That way, in 'pedals down' position, you will have a nice low tonic note on string 11.

Chris

[Ian Rae]

...but don't raise your low E on the F lever.

Instead lower it to C# - sounds extreme but it gives you a root note in the A/F position.

[Chris Brooks]

Thoroughly agree, Ian. That's what I have.

In addition to giving you the low root, it scares the heck out of guitar players!

Chris

[Bobby D. Jones]

When I went from S 10 E9th to a S 12U 3 years ago I picked Jeff Newman's 12U. With 8th E to D# and F, 9th B knee lever to D, 10th G# with B pedal Raise to A, 11 string E to F on knee lever and With D# on pedal 4.

I have spent a lot of time trying to figure out playing on strings 7-8-9-10-11 in lower octave, I have not got serious on the B6th tuning yet.

[Pete Burak]

I basically have all of the pedal/lever changes that exist on a standard E9th Tuning installed on strings 12-8 on my S12U, which really opens up that lower octave.

[Brandon Schafer]

I don’t own a 10 string instrument anymore. I’ve committed to Extended E9 all the way! I don’t go to the low E string on every song in our set, mind you. However, when it’s musically appropriate to go there, I would be annoyed to be without it.

[Dave Mudgett]

There is nothing whatever wrong with a 10-string E9 setup. But there is also absolutely no disadvantage to a 12-string Extended E9 setup in comparison. It only offers additional playing options, which you can use when appropriate, and not use when not appropriate. One can even remove the bottom two strings.

I suppose if you've been playing 10-string for a long time and don't want to acclimate to the extra two strings, that could be a reason not to go that way.

With 12 strings, I've tried both Ext E9 and universal E9/B6, and I guess I find the universal more useful for me. The only thing it really misses is the 9th string D as an open string, and I put that on a lever (B=>D). It's not exactly the same, but for me, what I gain with the universal is greater than what I lose.

I also play standard 10-string E9 and C6, as well as 8-string non-pedal steels. What I prefer depends on the playing situation.

Fred: Conversely, if the bass player insists on bumping up the amp’s midrange control and playing in the upper register, then it’s time to have a chat. ...

Pete: For me the chat usually goes... (me to Bass player who is now playing lead Bass)... Can you please play half as many notes, an Octave lower???

Ha! Yeah, I have had a few of those 'chats'.

[J D Sauser]

IF I'd ever play E9th again, I would not want to miss the growl one gets with a B-pedaled low G#-to-A against the A-pedaled 10th string B-to-C#... that makes it at least 11 strings... and that's a difficult to find instrument, so, 12 strings it is.

... J-D.

[Nathan Guilford]

I went from my first steel 13 years ago, a Zum stage one, to a 1970's D-12 MSA (about 6 years ago) with a built in fuzz 9 pedals and 5 knee levers. I wanted all options available to learn on. Now, I want a lighter instrument, but don't wanna give up the extended 12 string E9. I do use the lower strings a lot. I don't know about y'all, but even when I play strictly "country" gigs- there are still those songs that call for more bluesier slide parts. If you've got the low strings, you can (kinda) simulate that low growl that lap steel gets, but you've got all the familiar pedal changes and scales you already know. Simply put, if I didn't have it, I'd miss it.