What am I missing in this E9 copedent?
Moderator: Shoshanah Marohn
- Christopher Peck
- Posts: 53
- Joined: 4 Sep 2021 3:16 am
- Location: Seattle
What am I missing in this E9 copedent?
I'm new to PSG, just picked it up to have fun with for my own enjoyment. I play other stuff for moola and want to have something challenging to work at musically that I don't have to do the dancing monkey thing with...
Anyways, I've got a BMI S10 3/4 set up in one end of my studio and I'm having a ton of fun shedding on it. It's been a long time since I've felt like a beginner on an instrument and it's kinda put my ego in check a bit. The thumb pick is working great, index finger half decent, but my middle finger is taking a while to learn where the end of the pick is and how to strike with it. Ring finger is the same story, it's like my right hand hasn't been finger picking guitar for the past 40 years!
But this is a question about copedents. Here's the one on my BMI:
The typical Buddy Emmons RKR is swapped over to RKL and RKR is shifting strings 1 and 6 to G natural. Which I kinda dig right now; it gives me and easy move for a minor chord. But even being a noob at PSG I know that every option taken has gains and losses. I'm curious as to what the gains are other than just a simple move to grab a minor triad and what this copedent misses that the more usual 2nd string E/6th string F# enables.
What are your thoughts, folks? The permutations are fascinating.
ed. to add: Yup, the 9th string D# is a really a D nat. When I plugged things into the excel chart I think I grabbed the autofill offering. Doh!
Anyways, I've got a BMI S10 3/4 set up in one end of my studio and I'm having a ton of fun shedding on it. It's been a long time since I've felt like a beginner on an instrument and it's kinda put my ego in check a bit. The thumb pick is working great, index finger half decent, but my middle finger is taking a while to learn where the end of the pick is and how to strike with it. Ring finger is the same story, it's like my right hand hasn't been finger picking guitar for the past 40 years!
But this is a question about copedents. Here's the one on my BMI:
The typical Buddy Emmons RKR is swapped over to RKL and RKR is shifting strings 1 and 6 to G natural. Which I kinda dig right now; it gives me and easy move for a minor chord. But even being a noob at PSG I know that every option taken has gains and losses. I'm curious as to what the gains are other than just a simple move to grab a minor triad and what this copedent misses that the more usual 2nd string E/6th string F# enables.
What are your thoughts, folks? The permutations are fascinating.
ed. to add: Yup, the 9th string D# is a really a D nat. When I plugged things into the excel chart I think I grabbed the autofill offering. Doh!
Last edited by Christopher Peck on 22 Sep 2021 5:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
- John Larson
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Is there no option for a half stop on the 2nd string change so you get the -D and --C#?
I assume you're coming from playing guitar?
A cool thing about the usual ++G# lever change on 1 and 7 is you can do a unison bend with the 1 and 3 strings (or 6 and 7 in the lower octave), (yours seems to be a lower on 6 which is odd).
I assume you're coming from playing guitar?
A cool thing about the usual ++G# lever change on 1 and 7 is you can do a unison bend with the 1 and 3 strings (or 6 and 7 in the lower octave), (yours seems to be a lower on 6 which is odd).
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If you lower the 6th string to F# on your RKR, you can still get the G note by combining it with pedal 2. It's a very useful change.
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- Christopher Peck
- Posts: 53
- Joined: 4 Sep 2021 3:16 am
- Location: Seattle
Nope I don't have a half step on the RKR. It's an older BMI. You hit on the bit that struck me as unusual, that G# to G on string 6. I haven't noticed anything along those lines while poking around the interwebz.John Larson wrote:Is there no option for a half stop on the 2nd string change so you get the -D and --C#?
I assume you're coming from playing guitar?
A cool thing about the usual ++G# lever change on 1 and 7 is you can do a unison bend with the 1 and 3 strings (or 6 and 7 in the lower octave), (yours seems to be a lower on 6 which is odd).
I'm coming from trumpet/bone, guitar, mandolin, fiddle, Irish bouzouki, and other stuff. I've got a strong background in music theory, probably part of what makes PSG so fascinating; it's cool bringing the notes to the bar rather than moving fingers around on keys of frets chasing the notes. It feels to my brain like I'm pulling notes from above or below to the bar. Right now I'll get crossed up like I've got two left feet sometimes. It'll be a while before I've got the body mechanics built up in my kinesthetic memory.
- Christopher Peck
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- Location: Seattle
Do you mean increasing the RKR drop from a half step down to G natural to a whole step down to F#?b0b wrote:If you lower the 6th string to F# on your RKR, you can still get the G note by combining it with pedal 2. It's a very useful change.
I'll have to think about that one for a while. The ways one little change like that impacts everything else are pretty foreign to my brain at this point.
Thanks!
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- Richard Sinkler
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- Location: aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
I would move the 6th string change to G down to the 7th string and raise that to G similar to the first string raise to G. That's how it is usually seen on guitars that have the F# to G changes. Those changes give you a 7th chord when used with your 1st & 2nd (A&B) pedals. Adds some bluesy type licks. And, you can still get that minor chord by picking strings 4,5,7 instead of 4,5,6. Having the G on 6 screws up the nice 7th chord using strings 6,5,4,1, Although you could not play the root tone on string 6. You have the root on 3 still, but that doesn't sound as good to me as having the root tone at the bottom.
String 1 & 7 F# to G# are cool changes too, but I prefer lowering 6 to F# more than raising 7 to G#. I had both on my guitar, but never used the F# to G# on string 7 enough to keep it on there.
String 1 & 7 F# to G# are cool changes too, but I prefer lowering 6 to F# more than raising 7 to G#. I had both on my guitar, but never used the F# to G# on string 7 enough to keep it on there.
Last edited by Richard Sinkler on 22 Sep 2021 3:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, NV400, NV112 . Playing for 53 years and still counting.
- Richard Sinkler
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- Location: aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
Works best on most guitars if you have a split tuner, either the screw in the changer type or the "extra rod" method, which I assume you don't have. Some get lucky with that "split" and get both the G and F# in tune. I, and many others I know, aren't that lucky and need split tuners. When we use the G# to F# lower and B pedal together, we first tune the G note with the A&B pedals and knee lever activated, with the lower nylon tuning nut for string 6 (the G# to F# change), but when we use just the G# to F# lever by itself, or most likely with the lever that lowers the E's to D# (gives a 5 chord in the open position on strings 1,2,4,5,6,7,8,10), the F# is slightly flat. On my guitar, I don't have split tuning screws in he changer housing, so I use an extra rod on the knee lever to raise string 6 very slight to bring the F# in tune.b0b wrote:If you lower the 6th string to F# on your RKR, you can still get the G note by combining it with pedal 2. It's a very useful change.
And yes, string 9 should be a D.
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, NV400, NV112 . Playing for 53 years and still counting.
- Bob Hoffnar
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You have plenty there already. I personally skip the double lower on the 2nd string. The half stop lower to D is the important note to me and if I need to play the Emmons “touch my heart†intro I use a slant.
That 9th string tuned to D is important. It gives you a tritone built into the open tuning. That is the elegant heart of the E9 tuning.
Keep in mind that the pedalsteel is not an autoharp that you push buttons on to make chords.
That 9th string tuned to D is important. It gives you a tritone built into the open tuning. That is the elegant heart of the E9 tuning.
Keep in mind that the pedalsteel is not an autoharp that you push buttons on to make chords.
Bob
- Christopher Peck
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- Location: Seattle
I'm kinda wondering why someone would go for the two G naturals on the 1st and 6th strings. Like 'what were they going for?' wise. Maybe they were chasing the nearly complete chromatic scale tones on the lower half of the neck without making making any consecutive double moves on any one pedal or knee?
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You could easily re-rod string-1 to lower both G#'s to G on RKR.Christopher Peck wrote:I'm kinda wondering why someone would go for the two G naturals on the 1st and 6th strings. Like 'what were they going for?' wise. Maybe they were chasing the nearly complete chromatic scale tones on the lower half of the neck without making making any consecutive double moves on any one pedal or knee?
That basically changes any open chord to a minor. Like changing an open E to Em. My guess would be that is what the G's were used for.
- Fred Treece
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That makes MUCH more sense to me than raising 1 and lowering 6. It gets rid of that major 3rd clinker note on string 3 when you’re going for an Em chord.Pete Burak wrote:You could easily re-rod string-1 to lower both G#'s to G on RKR.Christopher Peck wrote:I'm kinda wondering why someone would go for the two G naturals on the 1st and 6th strings. Like 'what were they going for?' wise. Maybe they were chasing the nearly complete chromatic scale tones on the lower half of the neck without making making any consecutive double moves on any one pedal or knee?
That basically changes any open chord to a minor. Like changing an open E to Em. My guess would be that is what the G's were used for.
As Richard Sinkler pointed out, raising 1 and 7 to G works well also. Plus, you can step on Pedal B to raise the G# clinker on 6 and 3 to A, and gain a minor pentatonic scale out of the deal.
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Last edited by Paul Sutherland on 22 Sep 2021 8:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing.
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I wouldn't touch any of the pedals or levers, except for possibly RKR. If you want to experiment that's where your focus should be. One change that is common that has not been mentioned is lowering 5 & 10 a half tone. It has it's uses. It's often on the left knee as a vertical, but it doesn't have to be.
It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing.
- Earnest Bovine
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- Christopher Peck
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On my Push-Pull I raise both F#'s to G.
I use the string-1 F# to G for a cool ascending/descending Buddy Cage style lick.
It starts and ends on string-4-E.
You pick string-4 and raise it to F# with the C-pedal.
Then pick string-1 and raise it to G (keep your RKR lever engaged).
Then pick string-3 G# (that completes the ascending part).
Then pick string-1 and release the G to F# (also release the C pedal).
Then pick string-4-E.
I use it on the bridge solo of Lonesome LA Cowboy, and also works good on the Bridge of Silver Wings and other 1-4-5 stuff like that.
If you don't raise string-1 to F# you can easily do a behind the bar pull on string-1 to raise it a half step.
I use the string-1 F# to G for a cool ascending/descending Buddy Cage style lick.
It starts and ends on string-4-E.
You pick string-4 and raise it to F# with the C-pedal.
Then pick string-1 and raise it to G (keep your RKR lever engaged).
Then pick string-3 G# (that completes the ascending part).
Then pick string-1 and release the G to F# (also release the C pedal).
Then pick string-4-E.
I use it on the bridge solo of Lonesome LA Cowboy, and also works good on the Bridge of Silver Wings and other 1-4-5 stuff like that.
If you don't raise string-1 to F# you can easily do a behind the bar pull on string-1 to raise it a half step.
- Richard Sinkler
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I also raise both F#s to G on my vertical. Have for most all 51 years of my career. I also raise string 1 to G# on RKR along with raising 2 to E and lowering your to F#. I use the F# to G changes a lot.
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, NV400, NV112 . Playing for 53 years and still counting.
- Cappone dAngelo
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Re: What am I missing in this E9 copedent?
Sounds like we have a similar experience - both in our reason for learning PSG and re feeling like a beginner for the first time in a long time! For reference, I've played guitar for several decades, studied and gigged on saxophone, and have a background in theory and composition (B.Mus). I'm not a country player - on any instrument - and although I'm digging into it a bit now my primary goals on PSG are mostly outside country music and my copedent is strongly informed by the voice leading/chord progressions/etc. to which I gravitate. So, 6 months into learning PSG, this is my copedent:Christopher Peck wrote:I'm new to PSG, just picked it up to have fun with for my own enjoyment. I play other stuff for moola and want to have something challenging to work at musically that I don't have to do the dancing monkey thing with...
Anyways, I've got a BMI S10 3/4 set up in one end of my studio and I'm having a ton of fun shedding on it. It's been a long time since I've felt like a beginner on an instrument and it's kinda put my ego in check a bit. The thumb pick is working great, index finger half decent, but my middle finger is taking a while to learn where the end of the pick is and how to strike with it. Ring finger is the same story, it's like my right hand hasn't been finger picking guitar for the past 40 years!
It's strongly influenced by Paul Franklin (and when I got my PSG, it was almost exactly Paul's setup from before he changed LKV to the big G->E drop). I've tweaked it to reflect Paul's own recommendations - including moving the Franklin pedal to P0 (instead of on the right of Pedal C where he has it) and splitting the B->A and G#->F# changes which adds versatility. It ends up quite close to Tommy White's copedent (https://b0b.com/wp/copedents/famous-players/#E9tw) but with the changes on different pedals/knees.
I don't have rods to do it now, but I'm considering adding the F#->G (or F#-G#?) string 7 change on LKR or RKR. I may add a B->Bb change, primarily to do the subdominant (4) chord change to minor with pedals A and B down, but I'd need to either sacrifice the current LKV change - which I love, as it opens up some great voice-leading options since string 6 can go from F# to B with just the changers - or add another knee lever, and in any event I can get the same result by half-pedalling Pedal A.
P4 is kind of my 'swing' pedal - right now I have it lowering string 6 a half step, but it's a redundant change (I can do the same on LKR), so I will likely switch that to something else at some point (suggestions welcome!).
Hope this is useful/inspiring.
Cheers,
C
- Gary Shepherd
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String 9 should be D→C#. Many players use this as a "feel-stop" so that string 2 can be lowered a full step. Ideally, the 9th string starts to engage just as the 2nd string gets to D, and you can "feel" the extra tension in the lever. Some people like this, others have a hard time feeling it and prefer to have one change or the other.
My guitar came from the factory as a 3x4, pretty close to how yours is set up. One difference was that the change you have on RKR had the G on string 1, but not on string 6. Instead, it lowered the B→Bb on the 5th string. (I later added a vertical lever for B→Bb, and put the RKR just like yours.
There's a lot of discussion over what's more useful on string 1...G or G#. I have it set to G, and use a bar slant along with the lever when I want G#. Takes a little practice, but works.
So if I had your guitar, I'd set up the feel-stop on strings 2 and 9 as described above. I'd *might* set RKR so it lowered string 5 to Bb and raised string 1 to G. But honestly, I rarely use the Bb change. Even if you do nothing, there's a LOT of music to be made with the changes you have there.
My guitar came from the factory as a 3x4, pretty close to how yours is set up. One difference was that the change you have on RKR had the G on string 1, but not on string 6. Instead, it lowered the B→Bb on the 5th string. (I later added a vertical lever for B→Bb, and put the RKR just like yours.
There's a lot of discussion over what's more useful on string 1...G or G#. I have it set to G, and use a bar slant along with the lever when I want G#. Takes a little practice, but works.
So if I had your guitar, I'd set up the feel-stop on strings 2 and 9 as described above. I'd *might* set RKR so it lowered string 5 to Bb and raised string 1 to G. But honestly, I rarely use the Bb change. Even if you do nothing, there's a LOT of music to be made with the changes you have there.
- Roger Rettig
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In addition to others' observations, I'd add that I, too, would really miss lowering my Bs to A#.
For me it's on RKL but that's because I consider it a fundamental change and, being a bit uncomfortable with that pesky vertical-knee, I've assigned a less-important pull to my LKV. (That's where I raise 1,2 & 7 - lots of possibilities with that one but less vital than lowering those Bs!)
For me it's on RKL but that's because I consider it a fundamental change and, being a bit uncomfortable with that pesky vertical-knee, I've assigned a less-important pull to my LKV. (That's where I raise 1,2 & 7 - lots of possibilities with that one but less vital than lowering those Bs!)
Roger Rettig - Emmons D10
(8+9: 'Day' pedals) Williams SD-12 (D13th: 8+6), Quilter TT-12, B-bender Teles and several old Martins.
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(8+9: 'Day' pedals) Williams SD-12 (D13th: 8+6), Quilter TT-12, B-bender Teles and several old Martins.
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- Richard Sinkler
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Didn't use it enough to waste (for my playing) a knee lever on it. I do lower my B's to Bb on pedal 4, next to my A pedal (I'm a Day player). Don't really use it to make A&B pedal major chord into a minor, the same minor is is available 1 fret up with the lever that lowers E to D#. I use it mainly to get the 2(9) chord similar to the lowering of the G string on C6 pedal 5.Gary Shepherd wrote:I would miss B to Bb on a vertical lever.
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, NV400, NV112 . Playing for 53 years and still counting.