National Tricone Squareneck Cone Swap

Chuck Moore · Post by **Chuck Moore** » 4 Sep 2021 6:06 pm

I've just acquired a 1929 National Tricone Style 1 Squareneck. (I don't even have it in my hands yet, it's on it's way). Although it reportedly plays well, from what I understand from doing some research it could probably benefit from a new set of cones. Has anybody done the swap? If so, what should I be aware of or look for? I have seen only scant information on the Internet about the workings of a trigone resonator. I'm a fairly competent luthier but I am only familiar with wood bodied instruments. Thanks for your input!

(Photo from Picker's Supply)

Glenn Wilde · Post by **Glenn Wilde** » 4 Sep 2021 6:37 pm

Don't think you need to change anything on that guitar because of internet jive. If its original and healthy then leave it that way, this is not an instrument to mod and experiment with. I have two resonators from that era with original cones that sound fabulous, if i was lucky enough to have an original triplate let me tell you that the last thing on my mind would be bolting some new parts to it.

Chuck Moore · Post by **Chuck Moore** » 4 Sep 2021 6:47 pm

Haha! Great advice Glenn, thanks. I know the resonators on tricones fair better than single cones do after the years so I may get lucky and not have to do anything. The shop I bought it from is very reputable and deals with a lot of vintage and rare instruments and it got a passing grade from the owner, whatever that's worth. I was looking ahead at a possible worse case scenario. I've read where some single cone resonator players swap out their cones every few years. I've only played a national Doulian before and have no experience with tricones. Your comment is appreciated and encouraging!

Lloyd Graves · Post by **Lloyd Graves** » 4 Sep 2021 8:32 pm

I know Sebastian (from this forum) swapped out his vintage tricone cones with a new set from National. If yours needs the work, he'd be a good resource. He's very responsive via email in my experience.

Congratulations! I'm jealous!
Lloyd

David Ball · Post by **David Ball** » 5 Sep 2021 5:51 am

I've swapped several sets out over the years. There's really not much to it from my experience--put in the new cones--they're pretty much self centering because of how the soundwell is made, make sure the T bar is seated well on top of each of the cones, put on the coverplate and string 'er up. Doesn't seem nearly as tricky as getting a single cone back in good working order. I think that's because the smaller cones seat easier than big ones. Not as prone to rattling.

As Glenn said, unless the cones are crushed or torn, there's probably no need to change them out in my opinion.

Brian Evans · Post by **Brian Evans** » 5 Sep 2021 8:54 am

Square neck has no action height to finesse, mostly the setup will be getting the cones centered, the bridge centered, square to the string path and the right distance from the neck. But I'm with those who say try it first. I have an original cone Dobro from 1935, it sounds wonderful. Would it sound different with a new cone? Probably, but different isn't better, it's just different. Unless someone sat on it and squashed the original cones, I guess...

Chuck Moore · Post by **Chuck Moore** » 15 Sep 2021 12:11 pm

Update on my '29 National Tricone. When I received it sounded like a trash can full of tin cans being shaken. It's probably why I was able to get it at a relative "bargain". With no obvious damage apparent from the outside and no seam separations I suspected that one or more of the cones had to be at fault. Sure enough, two were damaged, one was crushed. Of course this lowered the action to the point were it was barely playable (aprox 1/8" at the 12th fret). I replaced the cones with a new set of "Hot Rods". I've also read that early on National fitted these cones with a paper gasket to satisfy their customer base who wanted that sweet Hawaiian tone that was so popular back in the the day (still is as far as I'm concerned).

There was also evidence that this guitar also had them so I made some from some 5 mil brown kraft paper. I also noticed the tailpiece was set quite high, affording absolutely no string break angle over the bridge so I adjusted it lower. I'm not sure what the standard is for this guitar but from my lutherie experience I know it's critical to have a certain amount of downward pressure on the bridge. The end result is an absolutely stunningly sounding instrument, full, warm "shimmering" tone with plenty of volume and sustain. I couldn't be happier.

Mahalo for reading and to those who responded to my comment.

David Ball · Post by **David Ball** » 15 Sep 2021 1:46 pm

Excellent! Glad it worked out. The old National I still have is one with the wooden soundwell (a very early one) and it sounds a lot different than the later metal soundwell guitars. I suspect that the kraft paper gaskets were originally trying to get back to the earlier sound. A good sound indeed!

Beautiful guitar, by the way.

Dave

Chuck Moore · Post by **Chuck Moore** » 16 Sep 2021 9:23 am

Thanks David. What I don't understand is how cones can get damaged in this way. There's no evidence of impact on the outside of the guitar and the bridge and cones are pretty well protected by all the metal work. Would simply string pressure be enough to do it? Maybe some one leaned on the strings real hard. I know crushed and torn cones are fairly common but I have no idea how it happens. I want to make sure I don't do anything to abuse it.

David Ball · Post by **David Ball** » 16 Sep 2021 9:36 am

Looks like maybe the bridge wasn't seated right when restringing or something like that--the dents look like the crossbar was sitting on the cone instead of the little pad sitting on the cone. From my experience, the big thing is when changing strings, change one string at a time to where the bridge and cones always have tension on them and don't get a chance to move around.

Dave

Chuck Moore · Post by **Chuck Moore** » 16 Sep 2021 10:07 am

Yes, good advice on the string change David. I could see what might happen if there was no tension on the cones and the pin in the T bridge missed the hole in the cone. That could cause the kind of damage I've seen. Thanks again.

Glenn Wilde · Post by **Glenn Wilde** » 16 Sep 2021 1:19 pm

Congrats, i want one pretty bad but they are quickly getting out of reach, no problem though im fairly happy with my Republic Chi-cone for now. Ive been ogling a '29 Style 2 on Norms site but 5k would pretty much assure a divorce in my future.

Chuck Moore · Post by **Chuck Moore** » 16 Sep 2021 1:27 pm

Glenn, I got mine for $3k. But it's a style 1 and sounded pretty awful. They wanted $4k but were open to offers ands to my surprise they accepted it. It probably sat in the shop for a long time. National square necks, at least at a fair price, are pretty rare. I never feel comfortable low balling offers but I thought it was worth a shot.

Chuck Moore · Post by **Chuck Moore** » 16 Sep 2021 1:30 pm

You're a bad influence on me Sebastian!

The National hot rod cone swap totally transformed the guitar. I'll be swapping the cones on Alan Akaka's Style 4 now so he can start playing it again! Thanks again for your beautiful music and continued inspiration.

David Ball · Post by **David Ball** » 16 Sep 2021 3:32 pm

I started collecting Nationals back when they were affordable, and sold them when they got too valuable to hold on to. My first tricone was a style 2 round neck. It had been the toy for some kids in the mountains here. They drug it around on a string as a toy. The guy I got it from traded a nice new red Radio Flyer for it. Kids liked the wagon better. I got it for $300 in the 80's. Sold it for a good profit and bought a style 4 square neck from Gruhn's.

Paid another $300 for it. It needed work, but I restored it and sold it to Scott Chinery for a tidy sum a few years later. A few years later, I saw that same guitar at an exhibit at the Smithsonian of Scott's guitars (right next to Nat King Cole's guitarist, Oscar Moore's Stromberg). The display pointed out the details that showed it was original--they were all part of my restoration, so I felt pretty good about it. The style 4 in the Chinery Collection book is that guitar.

I only kept my very early tricone with the soldered strip sound holes and the wooden soundwell. That one is in the Mark Makin book. Very fancy and I suspect was probably engraved by Rudy Dopyera. No way to prove it, but it looks a lot like the later Dopyera engraved banjos.

At any rate, prices of these things have gone crazy but not as crazy as they were a few years back. They're great instruments and definitely worth the kind of price Chuck's talking about and then some. Gotta love those tricones!

Dave

Chuck Moore · Post by **Chuck Moore** » 16 Sep 2021 9:07 pm

Those are great stories David and some wonderful guitars. BTW, I think I saw your Radio Flyer on Antiques Roadshow appraised at $3000.

Glenn Wilde · Post by **Glenn Wilde** » 17 Sep 2021 6:23 am

Cool, stories! I dont think the 2 at Norms is priced too high, just too high for me. The National tricone is one guitar that i believe should command a high price, it was never meant to be cheap.
When i got my '36 Duolian 30 years ago it was the only national i could even come close to affording, and it was still a struggle.
For a long time tricones just kind of hovered around their original price with no collector's premium attached, 125.00 was close to 2000.00 in 1929, only recently it seems they've been creeping up. I need to snag one!