Overtuning (and Undertuning) an All-Pull Steel

[Jon Light]

Fantastic, Tyler.
After years & years on the forum, I found this to be one of the most common issues when people were describing their tuning problems. Common enough that I can still find myself spending a few minutes scratching my head before I recognize that how 'bout that, I'm overtuned. It got tiring reading and writing the same explanations over & over, sometimes written....not so well (often by me)....
This was an attempt to once and for all address the issue and hopefully help even people who would just as soon not be tinkering under there. Although I urge everyone to get some sense of how this thing works, just to save yourself lots & lots of headaches.
Thanks for posting!

[Steve Kaplan]

Very helpful post. I have a Fessenden six shooter - I’m an absolute beginner in pedal steel - though I have been playing guitar for 50 years. It has an under tuning issue which I expect to now be able to correct.

[Jon Light]

I was having a sort of crappy day so thanks, Steve, for putting a bit of bounce back in my step.
If you run into any head scratchers, ask away. The beauty of the mechanics of these instruments is that problems are usually simple enough to troubleshoot and fix.

[Michael J Pfeifer]

Hi Jon,

Are you a steel guitar technician? Have you ever worked on a GFI?

[Jon Light]

Yes, I am. And no I haven't. I'm always curious so I have studied them from pictures but I've never been underneath one.
While I consider that 90% of what makes all-pull steel guitars tick is virtually the same from one steel to another, they all have slightly different proprietary ways of getting the job done. I fully appreciate anyone who holds out for 100% hands-on familiarity.

[Michael J Pfeifer]

Jon,

I discovered another problem with my steel so I think I'm sending it back to the factory. Thank you.

[Jon Light]

If/when you can, that's obviously the ideal option.

[Michael J Pfeifer]

Thanks Jon.

[Christopher Porterfield]

Jon, this post has been an enormous help. Thank you!

[Jon Light]

Jon, this post has been an enormous help. Thank you!

Thumbs-up. Thanks for posting.

[Christopher Robison]

So, To be clear, the nylon nut should NOT be touching the metal finger when pedals/levers are disengaged?

[Jon Light]

So, To be clear, the nylon nut should NOT be touching the metal finger when pedals/levers are disengaged?

That is correct.
HOWEVER
Gravity on the pedals might bring the nut in contact with the finger. If you manual lift the pedal against the slack-eliminating gravity, you should see the nut move out from the changer by the amount of slack that it is adjusted with. The weight of the idle pedals on the changer is a non-issue and this nylon-on-changer contact is of no importance. But you should be able to move the pedal up or grab the nylon nut with your fingers to see that there is in fact slack. We are talking about maybe 1/16", 1/8". Not a lot of slop.

[Christopher Robison]

So, To be clear, the nylon nut should NOT be touching the metal finger when pedals/levers are disengaged?

That is correct.
HOWEVER
Gravity on the pedals might bring the nut in contact with the finger. If you manual lift the pedal against the slack-eliminating gravity, you should see the nut move out from the changer by the amount of slack that it is adjusted with. The weight of the idle pedals on the changer is a non-issue and this nylon-on-changer contact is of no importance. But you should be able to move the pedal up or grab the nylon nut with your fingers to see that there is in fact slack. We are talking about maybe 1/16", 1/8". Not a lot of slop.

Ok. All pedals seem fine. All fingers seem to go back to the proper rest position. The issue on my carter starter is the lkr knee lever. Once engaged the open “e” strings go sharp 5-10 cents

[Steve Mueller]

Jon,
Thanks so much for sharing your expertise on all-pull steels on the Forum. I don't think anyone can play one of these contraptions for any length of time without needing to solve some issue, regardless of the make or age of your steel. The better you understand and recognize the potential problems, the more time you can spend playing and less time in frustration!

[Jon Light]

Thanks Steve. The better you understand how everything affects everything, the more random problems you are prepared for and the more confident you can be that you won't be stuck.

Christopher -- I don't know that I can add to what Jack Stone wrote in your other thread.

[Samuel Phillippe]

As a newbee pedal owner and player I really appreciate your comments Jon.
I purchased an older model BMI without knowledge of the mechanics and have been experiencing tuning issues (and playing issues also).
Your explanation regarding this matter have really helped me get on top of the tuning issues. I have ordered new Nylon nuts and will be replcaing the damaged ones and rechecking all the push rods.
Again thanks for the info.
Sam Phillippe

[Jon Light]

Good luck getting that into good shape, Samuel. BMI was my first steel (in 1983) and I've still got it.
It has a quirk -- it is important that the rods enter the changer holes as straight as possible. You really want to bend the rods so that they don't go through the changer at an angle. This can cause frictions and other hang-ups. A steel on which someone may have done some setup changes might have some issues along these lines.
But it's a real good steel.

[Jim Hankins]

Hi Jon, forumites. I have read thru Jon`s great insight and direction into the nylon nut tunning. Problem I have:
I have a 2003 Carter U12. Recently, it appears clear that the RKR E lowwer on st 8 returns 5 cents flat of 440 (I try to tune the E 5 cents over per Jeff Newman chart). I raise the Es to F on RKL, and the E returns to pitch. Only happens on the E lower. There is some slack of 1/16th or so in the rod, which appears the same as all the other ones. I have never adjusted the pedal stops or anything. There appears to be no string ball stuck in the changer. The finger appears to return flush. Should be a fairly new string. So, this may be some other problem than over tuning?

Other info: I did get that RKR lever replaced by John and Ann Fabian. Some how I broke it. Tom Bradshaw put the new lever on. It pulled off the guitar (again) and I eventually screwed the lever back on so that, unfortunately, the screw attacing the lever came all the way thru the top of the guitar. Needless to say, the lever has remained firmly attached for years. Now the weird thing, a coincidence? : About the time this tuning problem came up recenty, one day I went to play the guitar and much to my suprise, a thin plastic washer like separator was protruding out the top of the changer, I think it was in fact around the 8th string. It was just sticking more than half way out the top of the guitar, and coming out of the crack in the changer finger. I had no choice other than to pull the thin plastic out of the top of the changer. What is this ? Thanks Jim

[Jim Hankins]

Hi Jon, forumites. I have read thru Jon`s great insight and direction into the nylon nut tunning. Problem I have:
I have a 2003 Carter U12. Recently, it appears clear that the RKR E lowwer on st 8 returns 5 cents flat of 440 (I try to tune the E 5 cents over per Jeff Newman chart). I raise the Es to F on RKL, and the E returns to pitch. Only happens on the E lower. There is some slack of 1/16th or so in the rod, which appears the same as all the other ones. I have never adjusted the pedal stops or anything. There appears to be no string ball stuck in the changer. The finger appears to return flush. Should be a fairly new string. So, this may be some other problem than over tuning?

Other info: I did get that RKR lever replaced by John and Ann Fabian. Some how I broke it. Tom Bradshaw put the new lever on. It pulled off the guitar (again) and I eventually screwed the lever back on so that, unfortunately, the screw attacing the lever came all the way thru the top of the guitar. Needless to say, the lever has remained firmly attached for years. Now the weird thing, a coincidence? : About the time this tuning problem came up recenty, one day I went to play the guitar and much to my suprise, a thin plastic washer like separator was protruding out the top of the changer, I think it was in fact around the 8th string. It was just sticking more than half way out the top of the guitar, and coming out of the crack in the changer finger. I had no choice other than to pull the thin plastic out of the top of the changer. What is this ? Thanks Jim

[Jon Light]

Hi Jim.
I'd say that from everything you say, overtuning is not an issue.
Two common things that cause a lowered string to not come back up to pitch are:
-- gunk (the need for lubrication or, with age & neglect, a full solvent flush before relubing) and
-- a return spring that has lost some tension and needs to be tightened. With the non-adjustable Carter springs, this involves cutting a coil.

However, the ejected washer cannot be overlooked. Coincidences do occur but you just can't ignore the timing. If I were you, I would post a photo of the changer and ask for general ideas about this over in the Pedal Steel section of the forum. Although I played a 1999 Carter for a few years (and I, too, broke a couple of lever mechanisms), I'm not getting a good mental picture of what might have happened here.

[Jim Hankins]

Thanks Jon ! Yes I considered the spring, forgot to mention that. Just cut off a coil, any trick to that, or just common sense cutting/ bending? The spring looks as good as the others, in good shape. I tried lubbing the changer, string 8 area with Boeshield t-9, as recommended by Jeff Newman to not gunk up the changer, that is all I have used for years. Could be gunked up though. I will try to post some pics, but that would be further new territorry for me...Being RKR there is not much in the way of mechanics to inspect. Its all right there close the changer. Thanks so much !

[Jon Light]

The spring thing just came up recently (on a different subject) and I had the opportunity to say that it was not something I was comfortable with. So I won't try to give any guidance.
You can read this and see if it gives you any inspiration.
https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=378604

[Jim Hankins]

thanks Jon for directing me to that great thread on cutting the spring (possibly). It is tempting . I am going to continue playing around with it. Still working on loading pics of changer and the mystery washer too, Jim

[Jim Hankins]

Pictures of Carter changer and plastic washer that apparently came out of it

[Jon Light]

I remember that Carter used those as spacers where the cross shafts meet the rear apron. Did you specifically see this come from between changer fingers (my arrow) or just from the cavity?
Because I can't see anywhere that this could have been filling a gap -- I'd expect to see quite a large gap after it came out, if it were actually between fingers.




This does bring up one other thing to look at. Carter cross shafts can get pinched during winter dry-season as the body contracts. Cross shafts should have enough room that you can grab them and jiggle them laterally just a bit. Binding cross shafts can significantly interfere with....everything.




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