Designing my dream steel: Excel Superb copedent thoughts +

[Baron Collins-Hill]

Hi All,

I’ve been admiring Excel PSGs for a while now, and I’m toying with the idea of ordering one, but have a few thoughts I'd love some feedback on. First, a little background:

I'm not a particularly skilled steel player at this point, having a couple years of basic E9 under my belt and recently picked up a non pedal C6. That said I am a professional musician playing "things with frets" and love to design my own instruments and tuning systems. I'm not the most traditional player, and while I do love to play the classic country stuff, I also love to play fiddle tune arrangements (my current obsession is working out Scandinavian Polskas on PSG) and slow lush solo pieces. I've got the slow part down, still working on the lush

I love the sound of low octave melodies and harmonization when playing by myself, so I'm dreaming up a 13 String Superb with an Ext. E9 to C6 Lock that balances classic pedal layout with the ability to grab melodies in lower octaves using a lot of the same pedals and moves that happen in the normal 10 string range.

My current guitar is a 4x5 Zum Encore, and I love the copedent. While I don't use the ability to it's fullest degree (yet, probably ever), the fact that it is fully chromatic from bottom to top (except for missing a G natural on String 1) is appealing to my brain:



My starting place on my 13 string concept has been to extend many of those changes down into the lower register to maintain the same melodic abilities of the top end. I'm thinking 13 string so I can better mimic the classic 10 string with my extra strings being (low to high) B, E, and G#.



I realize that my P3 is probably too full to be achievable technically or tuning stability wise, I just dumped the classic changes on the all the strings to have a look at what it gave me.

Even with P3 classically only changing strings 4 and 5, the copedent stays completely chromatic from bottom to to (once again except for the lack of a G natural on String 1). I do like the ability to get string on to G#, but could be persuaded that G natural is a better choice, and I'll likely give it a try at some point.

In keeping with the abilities of the Excel Superb and my interest in C6, I'd have a C6 lever lock that would convert my extended E9 to the following, with the half step change noted on the right.

-1 F
-1 D
-1 G
0 E
1 C
1 A
1 G
0 E
-2 C
-2 A
-1 G
1 F
1 C

I haven't spent any time behind a C6 pedal steel, only lap steels, but am very keen to get into it and have the options. I don't have anything planned out for the C6 copedent, but would likely go for the classic Emmons pedals minus the A to B P4, which seems to be the least popular from what I've read, but feel free to discuss!

I want to put in a quick note of thanks fo Greg Cutshaw's excellent site and resources/reviews of his Excel, which sparked the idea in my mind of my dream steel and gave me a starting place with some ideas and knowledge of what is and isn't achievable. Thanks Greg, if you happen to read this I'd love to hear your thoughts!

So, in a very long winded way to ask my question fo anyone who has made it this far, what do you all think about this? Am I off my rocker? I know the answer to that is yes, but that's the way I like it. I'd love to hear anything from why my codependent does or doesn't make any sense to any overlooked technical limitations or instrument specific issues I could possibly run into.

Thanks very much,
Baron

[William Carter]

Having just gone through this myself about 3 times lately buying steels, here's my thoughts.

Get everything you think you want from the manufacturer. On a pro-model guitar, you can very easily just a) un-tune the change that you don't want at the nylon nut or b) disconnect the pull rod yourself. It's a lot easier to take away than add if you don't like shipping these things around (assuming you don't live near a PSG shop).

Your P3 won't be as bad as you think. Lots of people with D10 have multiple changes on some pedals due to one pedal functioning on both necks.

Your RKL is going to be a nightmare unless your builder/setup guy is some kind of miracle worker like Zumsteg. I would say 2 changes max on a Right lever because the height of the volume pedal (even low profile) takes away your leverage. I have 3 changes on my RKL and its still tough, but I adjusted the return springs to get it as good as it can be. In my personal experience/opinion raises are a lot easier/require less effort than lowers on knee levers probably due to the return springs.

Take a look at David Hartley's copedent on here. He took some of the changes traditionally on a lever and moved them to a pedal. You got lots of unused pedal space there. Looking at your setup, I would definitely have at least 5 pedals to spread out the changes a little more. Always easier to take away than to add later. In addition, the fewer changes you cram on to each pedal/lever, the more flexibility you have. Think of the AB pedal combo for example. They could have put all the changes on just one pedal since that's what we do most of the time is hold A and B together, but then we would lose the ability to get the minor by just holding down A. Same thing with people that split the Franklin change. You could easily split your P3 changes into a P3P4 combo that you would "normally" hold down together. Why not let P3 Raise the F# and P4 raise the C#? Just my thoughts. I'm sure there will be others.

The last thing I will mention is that since you are doing a 13 string setup (and I don't know your string gauges), I assume you are going to have one that is thicker than .060, so gauged rollers are a must have item. You will likely find yourself very unhappy when it arrives if they try to use the same size roller nuts for all 13 strings.

[Mike Vallandigham]

The good thing is a modern Excel can handle all of that stuff. And if you don't like anything, they are as easy or easier to change around.

Mitsuo can make a 13 string, he also makes 12 strings with the E9/C6 lever, Full functionality of a D10 in an S12.

They're great, I have two.

[Bob Hoffnar]

It looks like there may be a flaw in your process. You are looking at the tuning like a giant autoharp. The pedalsteel has another horizontal variable that is revealed as you play more and learn the neck. There is no way to understand this until you get to it. So on a basic level you are making it more complicated with no potential benefit.

You are limiting your harmonic possibilities by extending the same changes you have on your upper strings to the lower strings. Less really is more. Your set up makes counterpoint chordal work almost impossible.

Your set up is substantially more limited and limiting than a standard Emmons set up.

Get in touch and I can show you what I mean in a quick video chat. I made the same mistaken assumptions you are making years ago.

[Baron Collins-Hill]

Hi Bob,

You are totally spot on, I have been coming to that conclusion myself. I'd be happy to chat some time, i'll send you a PM or email.

Thanks,
Baron

[Cappone dAngelo]

I'm a total noob so weight my advice accordingly , but re the G vs G# on string 1 perhaps add a half stop to get both? I suggest this because I have a Mullen incoming with exactly that on LKR (with the same on string 7, as well as D#>E on 2 and B>A on 10 ...).

[Tucker Jackson]

I love the sound of low octave melodies and harmonization when playing by myself...

Yeah, I get that. A 10-string PSG played solo really calls out for some lower strings. When I played 12-U, it was great at home -- but the second I was on stage, it became really difficult for strings 11 and 12 to be heard over the noise of whatever rock or alt-country unit I was playing with. It all just melted into the bass rumble and wasn't discernable. In the end, I barely touched those strings... unless I was at home.

The last thing I will mention is that since you are doing a 13 string setup (and I don't know your string gauges), I assume you are going to have one that is thicker than .060, so gauged rollers are a must have item. You will likely find yourself very unhappy when it arrives if they try to use the same size roller nuts for all 13 strings.

The man speaks the truth. When going from 10-strings to 12, one of the things that drove me nuts was the way the super fat lower strings were catching on the butt-end of the bar when moving it back toward me. Also, with those bass strings being so very thick, it took a lot of extra downward pressure on the nose-end of the bar just to keep some higher strings from buzzing. My hand would cramp after 45 minutes or so. Gauged roller nuts would have fixed everything. It becomes even more critical on a 13 stringer... so much so, that I would just pass on buying any brand that couldn't supply gauged roller nuts.

[b0b]

I love the sound of low octave melodies and harmonization when playing by myself...

On the rare occasions when I want that, I use a Sub'n'Up octave pedal. It's cheating, I know, but it does sound really good.

[William Carter]

On the rare occasions when I want that, I use a Sub'n'Up octave pedal. It's cheating, I know, but it does sound really good.

I have a fiddle player friend that just bought one of those pedals. I think its the "Pitch Fork" pedal. B0b might be on to something here. My buddy is really happy with it on the fiddle. He uses it for a cello sound. Never heard of it on the PSG, but why wouldn't it work? Would be much cheaper and easier than trying to re-design an entire instrument to get a playable low end. Why not try one on the instrument you currently have just to see if you like it. Then design a new one if you still want it. I have also seen people tune down from E9 to D9 and such, just to get a little different tone and other reasons I'm sure.

There was another comment above about the low strings not being heard through the mix. This is something most 10 string players never have to deal with, but I consider anything above 12 strings to be like an experimental aircraft. You are kinda doing your own thing at this point and anything goes. Telonics has adjustable pickups that might help a little, but you might have to start considering multiple or split pickups like what the Fender P-Bass configuration is. There are PSG's out there with double pickups where the volume of each one is independently controlled like on a bass guitar.

I would definitely talk this over with some people who are familiar with building instruments with 12+ strings. It's a different animal at that point and beyond. Bill Rudolph would be a really good person to talk to, and I would not go much further without at least a phone conversation with somebody on his level as a builder. The Excel guy might be great, but a second opinion on something this custom never hurts.

[Dan Fries]

Hey Baron, I'm following your quest here with some interest. I'm newer to the PSG than yourself, but have been playing a nice E9 I was borrowing from Tom Bradshaw, and more recently getting to know the C6 neck on a Dekley D10 also from Tom - I'm in love with all the possibilities, but the inconsistencies and imprecision in tuning have led me in the direction of the Excel Superbs, which are evidently better in that department. The U12 with the lock looks amazing, and I've also been amazed at Greg's work. I would love to have been a fly on the wall for your "less is more" conversation with Bob Hoffnar - can you share anything from that? Specifically - is that just about the 13th string? Or would that apply with a 12 string? I'm only a couple months in here. Have you found your instrument yet? - Dan

[Baron Collins-Hill]

Hi Dan,

Bob was very generous with his time and opened my eyes to a lot of possibilities for voicings on the 10 string E9 neck. We went over a straight stack of C-E-G major triad starting high up on the 10th string and then finding that exact voicing with the bass note on each consecutive string, 9, 8, 7, etc. Amazing! Ultimately my own interest in the lower pitch posibilites of a U12 is winning out and I'm in the process of learning lots from forumite and excellent guy Pete Burak, and slowly designing my own U12 copedent with his help, as he's got a lot fo the same ideas as me, but he has many decades of hands on practice to back it up where as I am a rank newbie. PSG is such a personal journey it seems. I know that I could spend 10 lifetimes and not crack the standard 3x4 E9 10 string, but there is also other ideas that call to me, so I'm following my gut on this one.

Good luck in your journey!
Baron

[Tal Herbsman]

great topic. question for Bob or Baron, how does one get a major triad with root on string seven. the only thing I can think of is:

2 lower whole step with knee
5 lower 1/2 step w Vertical knee
7

is that right?

[Fred Treece]

great topic. question for Bob or Baron, how does one get a major triad with root on string seven. the only thing I can think of is:

2 lower whole step with knee
5 lower 1/2 step w Vertical knee
7

is that right?

That should work..
I do it with a 1/2 raise on 7 (and 1) with LV, and a 1/2 lower on 2 with RR. C triad at fret 5, Str 7-5-2.
With pedal B, it also turns that fret 5 position into an Am pentatonic riff monster.

[Larry Allen]

Baron, here’s what I’ve been using to get ALL styles, all types chords and lines, full bass...S10 Ext. E9