Sho-Bud tone - s-10 vs s-12

John Groover McDuffie · From: LA California, USA

I have a '83 s-12 and a rack-and-barrel s-10. They have Bill Lawrence 712 and 710 pickups respectively. I have been mainly playing the 12, but today I got played the s-10 (because it's lighter) and the tone is a lot brighter, more bite; it has the edge that seems lacking in the 12 string.

My question is: is it just due to the difference in the pickups (710 vs 712) or is it in the guitar itself? Are there inherent differences in the older changer vs the newer one that would account for the difference in tone?

Ricky Davis · From: Bertram, Texas USA

Absolutely a TON of differences between those two Sho-bud's from mechanisms to grain of wood from early to late. I can provide a almost endless list of reasons and differences that have nothing to do with them being a single-10 compared to single-12; but if you do a search in this section for "Sho-bud" or "Sho-bud date" or really anything; you can read why yourself and possibly learn so much more along the way.
Have fun.
Ricky

Bill Flores · From: Ventura, California, USA

Hi John, I have a S-12 of the same vintage as yours.When I first got it it had the stock changer, not the best tone to my ears. The biggest improvement I've made on this instrument was getting the changer fingers replaced by Duane Marrs.A BIG, and great improvement in tone.Yours has the same later style changer as mine if I am not mistaken. I also had S-10 with double raise/single lower changer, all original parts, great but differnt sound. As Rickey states there are vast differnces between these models and not really fair to compare the two. Bill

John Groover McDuffie · From: LA California, USA

Thanks Ricky & Bill. I would love more specifics... Ricky, you said you could provide an almost endless list.. how 'bout a top five? Bill, I'd love more info about the replacement fingers you got from Duane. Are they like the ones pictured on parts page 1 on his site (with a pin to hold the string) or the ones on parts page 2 (more rectangular in shape)?

[This message was edited by John Groover McDuffie on 10 July 2006 at 06:08 PM.]

[This message was edited by John Groover McDuffie on 10 July 2006 at 06:11 PM.]

[This message was edited by John Groover McDuffie on 10 July 2006 at 06:12 PM.]

Ricky Davis · From: Bertram, Texas USA

Ok top 5?
Well if you take just what the strings are vibrating on.
The finger difference is machined aluminum(old style); verses, cast pot metal and chromed(new style).
Brass rollers(Old style)and the amount of mass they sit in that style headstock; verses, either aluminum or steel rollers(new style)and what they sit in the newer headstock style.
How the slotted fingers pivot and move through the tail piece assembly underneath and what it's made of and how it is mounted; verses, newer style finger pivot with bottom plate and how it is mounted and what it's made of.
The grade of maple(not the figuring)they Sho-bud used back when; verses, the grade they used later(cheaper).
And the headstock and how it was mounted and what it is made out of between the two era's.
To go further.
The pickups are a different grade wire winding with a different winding machine from one era to the other.
The way the fingers are pulled and what pulled them and what those parts are made of and how they mounted and performed; affects the sound.
So there's a start and a example of what I've come across when dissassembling getting close to more than 50 different shobuds from all eras.
There were differences in something about Sho-bud also; from year to year; and pretty much a different mechanism almost every two to three years from the inception.
Ricky

John Groover McDuffie · From: LA California, USA

Okay, now we're getting somewhere!

1)Regarding the keyhead & nut rollers: the keyhead on my s-12 seems very similar in design and shape to the one on the s-10, and they both have brass rollers. Unless the keyhead on the newer guitar is more hollow underneath or a different grade of aluminum I think both guitars may be pretty similar in those respects.

2)Regarding the grade of wood, replacing the maple body seems too extreme a measure, unless it comes with all the other parts already attached (ie a whole new guitar)

3)So that leads us to look at the changer. The changer base on both guitars seem to be aluminum. Would you think that replacing the fingers on the s-12 with aluminum would be a noticeable improvement in tone?

4)The pickups on both guitars are Bill Lawrence 710/712's so your remarks about the Sho-Bud pickups are not directly applicable. The s-12 pickup is wound ~ 30% hotter than the 10 sting (DC ohms of approx 39k for the 12, 31k for the 10) which would make it darker sounding. (I suppose it could be an XR16, not a 712, since they look the same. If so I could change to a 712.)

I appreciate all your ideas. Thank you.

[This message was edited by John Groover McDuffie on 10 July 2006 at 08:44 PM.]

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

John
I have an 84 S-12 and the biggest improvement in tone AND performance was realized when John Coop GUTTED it. He replaced the changer with his high precision 'Super Fingers' and all the bellcranks, lever brackets and levers with parts he made to the original specs with the highest quality materials. The original changer was so worn and sloppy it couldn't make several whole tone lowers (like B to A on 5 and E to D on Cool

.

After John was done with it, I have a new guitar that sounds like a Sho-Bud and plays like a modern guitar. I believe the rollers John put on it are steel. Sounds great to my ears.

It looks pretty nice too.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
My CD's: 'I've Got Friends in COLD Places' - 'Pedal Steel Guitar'
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1984 Sho-Bud S/D-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

John Groover McDuffie · From: LA California, USA

Larry, did Coop replace the whole changer including the casting with the pickup cavity and raised areas between each finger? Or did he retain that, and replace parts such as fingers and raise and lower bars?

John Coop · From: YORKTOWN, IND. USA * R.I.P.

John..Just the fingers,raise and lower bars. Coop

Ricky Davis · From: Bertram, Texas USA

Yes; just like Larry said, He has experienced the huge difference between Coop's superfinger and really anything else.
John; that would make the single best improvement and you would hear the more authentic Sho-bud sound with your later model by doing this pictured below.

Ricky

Jerry Hayes · From: Virginia Beach, Va.

John, I had a ShoBud S-12 that I bought in the 70's when I still lived in SoCal. The main problem I had with mine was the pickup as the changer was great. Mine had the single lower, double raise changer. As for the pickup, I couldn't get it to balance out. I was using a Randall Commander II at the time and when I'd set the amp so the high strings sounded good the bass strings would be to muddy, when I'd set a good tone on the bass strings, the highs would be piercing and shrill. I'd heard about using Emmons pickups in ShoBud guitars so I ordered a 12 string pickup and installed it in the 'bud and lo and behold it was a great tone to say the least. One of our fellow Forumites from Great Britain (Micky Byrne) did the same thing to his 12 string 'bud and loves the way it sounds. I sure wish I still had that guitar.........JH in Va.

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Don't matter who's in Austin (or anywhere else) Ralph Mooney is still the king!!!

Bill Flores · From: Ventura, California, USA

John, My Marrs fingers do have the pin for the ball end, much better than the slot on the original one esp. for the bass strings.I can't comment on Coop's parts but there is enough testimony that I do intend when $$ available to change out all the pot metal stuff with his parts. I do have a 712 Lawerence in mine, but going to put original pu back in to see if I like it better. Bill

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