LeGrande III Mechanism

Boo Bernstein · From: Los Angeles, CA

After changing strings, I realized that the anti-cabinet drop mechanism on my LeGrande III is pulling the strings sharp on my C6th neck when I use the 5th pedal. I've cranked the thumb screw all the way clockwise (toward the bridge), which has taken care of most of the problem.

Here are my questions:

First, it seems to me that by screwing the thumbscrew in all the way, it should increase the amount the mechanism pulls and, therefore, make it sharp. But it is working in the opposite way. Second, if that's the case and I've got it screwed in all the way and it is still raising the strings a bit, how do I fix that?

Thanks for any advice. Boo

Boo Bernstein · From: Los Angeles, CA

bump

Hal Higgins · From: Denham Springs, LA

Boo.....get a hold of Bobby Bowman....He can fix you up I'm sure.....he's one of the best techs I know of when it comes to diagnosing and fixing problems with these instruments...His phone number is:281-856-9453.

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Be Blessed........HAL
'03 Carter D-10,(8 & 5) 95 Carter 9 & 7 Hilton Vol. Pedal, BJS Birthstone bar, 2 Racks w/Evans Pre-amps, Lexicon MPX500 & MPX550; (1) Nashville 400, (1) Webb 6-14 E Amp(2)1501-4 BW's in custom built cabs by T.A. Gibson, & Sound Tech PL802 Digital Power Amp; Steelers Choice seat with back rest and side-kick. Walker Seat w/o Backrest
Hal Higgins....Be blessed and "Keep Steelin'.....

Boo Bernstein · From: Los Angeles, CA

Thanks for the advice, Hal. I'm actually out of the country at the moment so I was looking for a quick fix. Luckily, it's not too far off so I can get through the tour. Thanks again! Boo

Hook Moore · From: South Charleston,West Virginia

Boo, I figured there would be lots of help on this subject. Sorry, I don`t know much about the mechanism either.
Hook

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www.HookMoore.com

Jeff Agnew · From: Dallas, TX

Boo,

I'm not sure we're using the same terminology because the counterforce pushes against the changer rather than pulling. Unless you're referring to the rod connecting to the bell crank. Either way...

Do you have the counterforce on both necks or only on E9? Mine is on both necks and I don't have this problem. Also, are you saying it makes the C6 neck sharp and it stays sharp even after releasing pedal 5?

The temporary fix would of course be to disconnect the counterforce rod from the bell crank until you have time to track down the source of the problem.

I'll check my guitar when I get home because I can't remember which way the thumbscrew turns to increase/decrease the counterforce. It sounds like yours is over-adjusted. I set mine years ago and have never had to tweak it. I do remember that the rod barely had to move to effectively elminate the cabinet drop.

Jerry Roller · From: Van Buren, Arkansas USA

Boo, the counterforce is hooked up individually to different crossrods so you can adjust it for each pedal. There is a knurled thumb wheel at the bellcrank on each pedal. You activate "A" pedal and adjust the thumb wheel at that cross rod until there is no drop or raise of the E string when you activate the pedal, then do the same for "B" pedal. Then do the same on the "C" pedal but since it pulls the 4th string you need to watch the 6th string and adjust so the 6th string does not change pitch. From your statement it sounds to me that you have the counterforce over adjusted.
Jerry

Boo Bernstein · From: Los Angeles, CA

Thanks, Jeff and Jerry. I do have the counterforce on both necks. I understand the concept of adjusting the knurled knobs underneath and that by "pulling" on the rod, it is actually pushing against the changer. On the 5th pedal I have adjusted the knob as far toward the changer as it will go but it is still pulling a bit sharp. Any ideas are appreciated. Thanks again, Boo

Jerry Roller · From: Van Buren, Arkansas USA

Boo, the set collar on the counterforce pullrod needs to be moved slightly toward the key end of the guitar so it will not activate the counterforce too much. Move that set collar then adjust the knurled hollow bolt until the E string stays in pitch when that pedal is pressed.
Jerry

Jeff Agnew · From: Dallas, TX

I just got home and checked mine. I agree with Jerry that if you've got the thumbwheel as close to the bell crank as possible (toward the changer) then you need to move the brass collar in the opposite direction. I've got roughly 1" between the bell crank and the collar on all three C6 counterforce pulls.

Obviously at some point you'll move it far enough that there isn't enough pedal travel to activate the counterforce, which is a handy way to turn it "off" without disassembling anything.

A few other things you might check:

Be sure there is enough lubrication so the pull rod can travel easily through the collars of the other two bell cranks (pedals 4 & 7) and return to neutral position. Binding in either one could prevent returning to pitch fully.
Check the crank-to-collar distance on the other pulls as well.
Check that the pull rod activating the counterforce bell crank in front of the changer is in the top hole (away from the body).

I can post pics of the adjustments on mine if you think that will help.

Boo Bernstein · From: Los Angeles, CA

Jeff and Jerry -- thank you again for your input. The thing that I find really strange is that the more the thumbscrew is screwed toward the bridge, the less effect it has (meaning there seems to be less of the counterforce effect). That's the way I've set it now. But it seems to me that like pedal changes, it should work the opposite way -- the more the thumbscrew is adjusted away from the bridge, it should have less effect to the point of not pulling on the counterforce mechanism at all. Can you tell me which way you turn your thumbscrews to have which effect?

Thanks again! Boo

Boo Bernstein · From: Los Angeles, CA

Jeff Agnew · From: Dallas, TX

On my guitar, moving the thumbscrew closer to the collar (counterclockwise and away from the changer) causes the open string to sharpen. Backing the thumbscrew off to a certain point causes the open string to be neutral (no pitch change). Moving the collar (clockwise and toward the changer) all the way against the bell crank causes the open string to be slightly flat. Indicating that the compensator is disengaged.

Remember that if your pedal bottoms out before the thumbscrew has a chance to hit the collar, you're essentially removing the counterforce from that pull. I guess I'm missing something here Boo, but to my non-engineer brain this makes sense.

Boo Bernstein · From: Los Angeles, CA

Jeff -- Thank for staying in this with me. Maybe I'm completely confused. I have been assuming that the more the pull connected to the counterforce mechanism pulls, the more it actually pushes against the changer (which would make the strings go sharper). If that thinking is correct then the closer one would move the thumbscrew to the bell crank, the more it would be pulling and, in turn, the more it would be pushing against the changer. Is that making any sense? If this is not true, then I don't really understand how the counterforce mechanism works (which is not surprising

If you can give me any insight on how I'm seeing this so incorrectly, I would be happy to be enlightened. Again, thanks so much for your help. Boo

Jeff Agnew · From: Dallas, TX

Your explanation was absolutely correct, only the conclusion was backwards. Indeed, the more the counterforce pulls, the more pressure is applied to the changer.

I think I may understand where your confusion comes from. Maybe you're comparing the apparent length of the counterforce rod (CF - 'cause I hate typing the entire word) with the fact that if you tighten a nylon tuning nut on a normal raise, it sharpens the note. Shorter rod makes it sharper. Yes? So you're also thinking that if you seem to be be making the CF rod shorter it should apply more pressure and make the strings sharper? But the tuning nut and the CF collar/crank are two different beasts. Let's try a different approach to explain.

Would you agree that for a given pedal pull, and with no adjustment to the nylon tuning nut/pull rod length, that if you increase the distance that pedal can travel, the string will raise in pitch more than before? For the sake of argument, assume a pedal can travel 1" and raise a string from C to D. Now let's change the stop so the pedal can travel 2". All other things being equal, that string should now raise roughly from C to E. (Lots of other factors, I know. Just trying to simplify.)

That pedal travel and stop are the keys to understanding the whole CF thing. Let's go back to having 1" of travel. You want to set the amount of distance that CF rod can travel.

We don't want the CF to engage as soon as the pedal starts its travel. Why? Because it would be waaaay too much force against the changer. (This is why all your strings went sharp.) That's why there is space (slack) between the brass collar and the bell crank; you can sync the point at which the CF engages during the pedal's travel.

Flip your guitar over and you'll see what I mean. Now, where would you set the brass collar if you wanted the CF to engage as soon as the pedal started to move? Right up against the bell crank. The CF would be pulling the rod (and pushing against the changer) for the entire 1" the pedal can travel.

But again, we don't want that. So if you move the collar far enough away from the crank so that, say, the CF didn't engage until the last 1/2" of the pedal's travel, you just halved the amount of force it can apply against the changer. With me so far?

At this point, you've got all you need to adjust the CF. The only difference is we're actually moving the thumbscrew instead of the collar to adjust the point at which the CF starts to engage. Look closely at the bell crank while moving the pedal with your hand. The less space between it and the collar, the sooner in the pedal's travel it engages. Which equates to more pressure against the changer.

Again, if you can get past the "nylon nut/shorter rod" mental image it will help. You are actually lengthening the CF rod so that it hits the collar sooner. The collar functions as the rod's end point in the same way the bell crank does on all the other pulls on your guitar. The actual bell crank on the CF rod doesn't determine the rod length; the brass collar does.

I hope this convoluted explanation hasn't made things worse. I was going to draw and post some diagrams that I'm sure you would find much easier to grasp but I'm a little short of time tonight. If the above didn't do the trick, I'll have some time tomorrow and will try again.

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