Sho-Bud Permanent

[Michael Hale]

I'm practicing on a '58 Sho-Bud Permanent tuned C6 and D9. D9 because I was told the longer scale makes the high G# string too tight and prone to breaking with a E9 tuning. Is anyone aware of this and is there a work around other than tuning down?

Thanks!

[K Maul]

I’m not aware of that being a big problem on ShoBuds.

[Ricky Davis]

What's your scale on that '58 Perm???...and do you have Rollers on the keyhead for strings to go on before tuning keys??
Ricky

[David Ball]

I haven't had any problems breaking strings on my late 50s permanent tuned to E9 (no roller nut, but not the longer scale length).

Dave

[Michael Hale]

Here's a picture of the guitar. I believe the scale length is 25.5" No roller nut. Would this help and how would a roller nut be installed? I'm new to pedal steel but have been playing dobro and 8 string C6 lap steel for several years. Any suggestions are appreciated.
Picture file

[Ricky Davis]

Yes 25.5" scale is very long scale especially with no rollers. Yes let's see the pic..and if there is room in the grooves on the existing keyhead; they did start putting "String ball ends" with a axle through there if there's room for them to turn.
Otherwise you would have to get a sho-bud keyhead that would fit, that has rollers. Also the tail piece on some of them old Perms was adjustable to scale...but you would need alternate fretboards. Nobody really has any of these parts anymore; they all passed away. Only folks left that might have a old old parts..might be Michael Yahl at psgparts.com as we/he did receive some old John Coop stuff finally> "coop died also"..or....well I guess I've run out of options.
Ricky

[Kelcey ONeil]

I don’t have any experience with that particular model, but I do have long scale Fenders that I tune to E9. I have taken to using a 0.010” Ernie Ball RPS string for the G# as I have found them nearly unbreakable. As for the roller nut, my Fender 400 has neither a roller bridge or nut, with no issue with breakage. When I was trying other brands of strings, if they did break it was at the bridge, never at the nut. On a scale that long particularly, the string is moving little to none at the nut.

[Michael Hale]

Thanks for the information and advice. I'm happy to play out of D9 but most instruction is of course in E9, so I may try the lighter gauge string for G#.

Another question. The decal on the front (see picture) is worn off. What is the appropriate decal for this model and are they available?

Thanks!

Picture file

[Erv Niehaus]

When Buddy Emmons was designing the Emmons guitar, he experimented with different scale lengths.
He determined that 24 1/4" was the maximum scale length to use without experiencing considerable string breakage.
However, you can exceed this scale length with a keyless tuner because you are minimizing the extra string length beyond the nut.
Erv

[David Ball]

Thanks for the information and advice. I'm happy to play out of D9 but most instruction is of course in E9, so I may try the lighter gauge string for G#.

Another question. The decal on the front (see picture) is worn off. What is the appropriate decal for this model and are they available?

Thanks!

Interesting looking guitar--Nashville label (I think Michael Yahl has those), but cabinet end and "duck tail" changer, which usually (but not always) are found in a Madison made guitar. It has the small axle of the earlier Madisons, but has the scale adjustment screws on the changer like the later Nashville made permanents. Is this a D8 or a D10 guitar? I think that they continued using older Madison era parts on the 8 stringers into the 60s.

Dave

[Michael Hale]

It is D8. Is Madison and Nashville referring to where the guitar was made? I would like to know more of the history of this guitar. Where can I find a serial or ID number?

Thanks

[David Ball]

Yes, Madison and Nashville refer to where they were made. The Nashville decal on yours looks original, so I would guess it was probably made sometime in the 60s using 50s parts. The long scale 8 strings were very early ones, but Sho Bud continued to take orders for them and build them up through the 60s using parts on hand.

Here's some earlier threads that might help:

https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtop ... +permanent

https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtop ... +permanent

https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtop ... +permanent

As for serial numbers, apparently most permanents didn't have one. On my cabinet end Madison guitar, there is a serial number stamped into the castings where the legs screw in, right next to one of the leg sockets. But I don't know that that number has much significance.

Dave

[Mark Durante]

It was always accepted that having roller nuts were not best for tone but were much better for tuning issues. I would suggest not modifying your guitar unless you can get an exact replacement, (which is unlikely). These old guitars are very historic and you do not want to look back after you know more and regret doing modifications. Of course, you want the guitar to be practical and usable but don't expect it to do all things. If you are not knowledgeable and experienced, find someone who has a track record with these to work with you. Are you sure the scale is 25.5?
Hopefully someone here can come up with a decal.

[Michael Hale]

This guitar actually has a 25" scale. There is not an ID number on or under the cabinet. Michael Yahl believes it to be a Madison model and rather than a water decal a sticker was used. Another string question: Are there 8 string sets available or only 10 string? For Kelcey ONeil: You suggested using a 0.010" Ernie Ball RPS for the high G# string. This is a slinky electric guitar string correct? Rather than buying a whole set, maybe I can purchase single strings somewhere.

Thanks everyone for your responses.

[K Maul]

There are plenty of 8 string lap steel sets available, which would work, I think . There may be some here in the Forum Store.

[David Ball]

Michael Yahl believes it to be a Madison model and rather than a water decal a sticker was used.

I have two Madisons, and they both have waterslide decals on the body, but stickers on the pedal bar.

I've heard reports of Madison made guitars that went back to Sho Bud later on in life for upgrades or whatever and came back with Nashville labels. Could be one of those too.

Got any pictures of the underside?

Dave

[Michael Hale]

I haven't found lap steel strings for E9 so it seems like I would need to mix and match string gauges. Here's a picture of the undercarriage.

Picture file .

Thanks

[David Ball]

Nice one! Cabinet end too, apparently with no apron in the back--the underside looks very similar to my earlier cabinet end Madison guitar. Long scale. Even though the label that you showed in one of the earlier pictures says Nashville (and the way Sho Bud built customs, it still could be but using Madison era parts), It's an awful lot like my late 50s Madison guitar. The undercarriage of my later Madison (early 60's) is considerably different. But, on the other hand, neither of my Permanents has the adjustable scale length screws, but later Nashville made permanents do. Maybe those were added by Sho Bud later on and they added the Nashville label then? Or maybe it really was built after the move to Nashville using mostly old parts. Doesn't really matter, since whenever it actually came out of the shop, it's a late 50's Bud.

For strings, I've just used ten string sets and dropped the bottom two strings on both necks. With the long scale, I would suspect you might have problems with the G# if you tune to E. Kelcey's suggestion sounds like a good one.

Dave

[Michael Hale]

All good information thanks!

[David Ball]

Another thing I hadn't noticed from the pictures earlier--your guitar has the old style "flip down" latches on the pedal rod connectors. I really doubt they were still using those in the Nashville era even on special order "old style" D8's. I bet yours went to Nashville Sho Bud for some work somewhere along the line (and a newer style adjustable changer, and decal...).

The Stratosphere pickups on those earliest Buds sound so great. The copies that Shot made later were good, but completely different tone from the Stratospheres to my ear. Matching the pickup color to the color of the cabinet was a cool touch too.

Dave