Why not a NEW~CHANGER on an OLDER~STEEL?

John Bechtel · From: Nashville, Tennessee, R.I.P.

Instead of trying to re~rig an older model PSG with limited changes, wouldn't it be a reasonable investment, if you can't afford another PSG; to try to invest in a more modern changer for your guitar? [At least (3)-Raises & (2)-Lowers] It wouldn't necessarily cause any change in the undercarriage~design! Just curious!

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“Big John”
a.k.a. {Keoni Nui}
Current Equipment

Charlie McDonald · From: out of the blue

Been thinking the same thing, John.
Anyone done this? I'm curious about mounting issues that might arise.

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

I believe Duane Marrs has done this to a few Profesionals.

If you got a ratty one and it needs a refinish,
might as well turn it into a super working machine,
and keep that killer tone.

If it were a cherry one and played fine,
I'd leave it alone.

Mike Perlowin · From: Los Angeles CA

Tom Bradshaw recently installed an MSA changer on a ZB 12 string. The result is a guitar that sounds like a ZB but plays like an MSA. The guitar can be seen here:

http://www.songwriter.com/bradshaw/restorations_zb_universal.php

Edited for typos. (I'm getting new glasses next week.)
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My web site

[This message was edited by Mike Perlowin on 27 May 2006 at 11:39 AM.]

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

Please don't do it to a classic instrument.

I know that some people have put all-pull changers into Sho-Bud Mavericks. It depends on what your time is worth. It's a lot of work. For most folks, it's easier to just scrap the Maverick and buy a good used Carter or something.

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Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6) My Blog

Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

I agree with Bobby. Unless it's a drop-in replacement, it's likely not worth the time and $$$. And anyone who took a push-pull or an old Fender and sawed it up to install a modern changer probably should be strung up....

;-)

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Much of the guitar's sound comes from the changer, and the way it's mounted. Putting a new changer in an old guitar, and then expecting it to sound just like the old guitar bofore the mod, is a crapshoot at best. Part of the charm of old things is the old mechanics inside them. Once you put a new Chevy engine and tranny in that ol' Model-A, it's no longer a real Model-A.

John Bechtel · From: Nashville, Tennessee, R.I.P.

Jim; I'm not 100% sure about a P/P and the Modern~Changer! If you do that, you are getting very close to a Derby PSG! [With all due respect to both companies!!!!] I'd much rather have my Derby with it's additional capabilities!

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“Big John”
a.k.a. {Keoni Nui}
Current Equipment

Kevin Hatton · From: Buffalo, N.Y.

Most any of the older guitars can be made to play great by someone who knows what they are doing. Replacing the changer will radicaly change the sound of the steel in alot of instances. I'm with Bob. Please do not butcher these old guitars.

John Bechtel · From: Nashville, Tennessee, R.I.P.

Pesonally, I think a lot of people let Vintage~Importance get in the way of the Practical~Importance of a situation!

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“Big John”
a.k.a. {Keoni Nui}
Current Equipment

Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

"Pesonally, I think a lot of people let Vintage~Importance get in the way of the Practical~Importance of a situation!"

There is a finite number of vintage instruments. Buthchering one lessons that number by one. Keep going - no more vintage instruments.

Practical importance dictates aqcuiring an instrument that meets your needs. If a vintage one doesn't then get one that does. But there are people that LIKE to play vintage guitars and amps as they are - people should respect that and not make irreversible modifications to vintage pieces.

And by the time you swap out a changer and remove or add wood to make a "modern" one fit, you've altered the tone you had to start with...so why not just buy something that FITS your needs?

CYA - My Fenders are heavily modified. But they were hacked when I got them, and it was impossible to return them to stock. So if you can find an already-hacked instrument as an experimentation platform, you're not taking a vintage instrument out of circulation or ruining it.

John Bechtel · From: Nashville, Tennessee, R.I.P.

The original intention of this post was meant as a less expensive alternative for someone who could not afford a newer PSG, but; could perhaps afford a more advanced changer! It has nothing to do with the aspect of ruining or preserving a vintage~instrument! Although granted, that might be another debatable side to the issue!

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“Big John”
a.k.a. {Keoni Nui}
Current Equipment

James Morehead · From: Prague, Oklahoma, USA - R.I.P.

Well John, I had my Shobud "Professional" changers upgraded by John Coop. I couldn't be happier. The original changer "housing" was professionally cleaned and polished, and John installed his new "Super Fingers". Now it plays great, and the tone is actually improved. Well worth it to me.

Tom Quinn · Posted 27 May 2006 6:07 pm

The vast majority of great steel in my book was played on vintage guitars. It's not the changer that makes the guitar play out of tune -- it's the operator! -L-

John Bechtel · From: Nashville, Tennessee, R.I.P.

My point is that an older (vintage) changer might be somewhat limited for today's new changes! A more modern changer would help some players advance for todays more complex copedents! Of course, we're back to Lloyd Green's situation! More isn't always better!

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“Big John”
a.k.a. {Keoni Nui}
Current Equipment

Bob Simmons · From: Trafford, Alabama, USA

believe it or not, I do quite a few of these rebuilds. I recently upgraded a nice old Miller Custom to an updated pull/release system- works and sure sounds good.

John Bechtel · From: Nashville, Tennessee, R.I.P.

I just thought, especially if finances are a problem; it might be a reasonable alternative and also if you want to try to keep your sound regardless of cost, it might be a good idea! Who would know the difference, if you didn't mention it?

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“Big John”
a.k.a. {Keoni Nui}
Current Equipment

Frank Parish · From: Nashville,Tn. USA

My first D-10 was a 74 Sho-Bud Pro-II and it was worn out when I got it in 84. Imagine playing it to death in just ten years? It would break strings 3-5-6 and even 10. I kept extra strings right next to me with clippers and a string winder because I knew it was going to happen most every day. If ever there was a guitar that needed something, that was the one. Back then I could've had more fingers installed but I wound up selling the guitar when I bought my first Emmons p/p. I think the work that Duane Marrs/Jeff Surratt and John Coop are doing is making the old Sho-Buds worth playing again and no doubt this time around they'll probably last longer. Eric West seems to really like his Pro III after Duane and Jeff got hold of it. Now I've seen a couple Emmons p/p's that were converted and they never had the tone anymore. You're talking about a major change going from the p/p changer on an Emmons to an all-pull system. I'd never consider that.

Ron ! · Posted 28 May 2006 8:11 am

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

I've just acquired a '71 Sho-Bud 'Professional' D10 with just 8+2. It was my intention that this be a 'second guitar' for the times I need two instruments, but it soon became clear that the 'Bud wasn't going to suffice.

I then thought about a re-build - but soon decided (after chatting with three steel 'pals' - Bud Vanderberg, Larry Bell and Bobbe Seymour) that it would be reprehensible to radically alter an old guitar, especially one that sounds as wonderful as this one does!

So - it'll remain as it is now, and the search is still on for a second 'working' steel; the Sho-Bud will simply grace my music room....

RR
PS: Edited to correct my misspelling of Bobbe's name - I can't believe I did that!!!

[This message was edited by Roger Rettig on 28 May 2006 at 09:08 PM.]

Bobbe Seymour · From: Hendersonville TN USA, R.I.P.

John, where do you think the "money savings" is going to come in? This suggestion of yours is an expensive way to go, unless your vintage guitar, parts and labor are already laying there. Even then you've killed the value of a potentionally valuable steelguitar.
John, you can NOT save money doing this.
You'd be money ahead by a long way to put your "vintage" guitar on Ebay, get a million for it, buy a nice newer guitar that will sound great and do everything THEN, put the extra money in your pocket.
This reminds me of the "fad" to convert Emmons P-P guitars to all pull a few years ago. Many great guitars were destroyed. this "fad" seems to be still going on with some other brands now. (not Miller, they need help and anything is an improvment).

Nict thought John, but it won't work,

Bobbe

Bobbe Seymour · From: Hendersonville TN USA, R.I.P.

Good thinking Roger! VERY good thinking!

John Bechtel · From: Nashville, Tennessee, R.I.P.

Well, I was only asking a question in my very first Post, so; why did it take so long for someone to come up with the correct answer? I didn't say it was the way to go, I only aXed if it was a smart and reasonable alternative for someone who could not afford to replace the whole guitar! Now, take out a loan and get another PSG that you want & need!

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“Big John”
a.k.a. {Keoni Nui}
Current Equipment

Mike Perlowin · From: Los Angeles CA

I think if a vintage instrument is already damaged, like Jim Skiff's fenders, or the ZB that Tom put an MSA on, it's OK.

Back in the 80's I converted a Musicman Saber into a 12 string, and in order to do so I had to thrash both the Musicman and a pre-CBS Fender 12 string. (At the time both guitars were considered worthless, Who could have predicted how valuab;e they would become?)

A local guitar player chided me for having destroyed the Fender, but the guitar I got as a result is actually far superior. It has the great feel of the Fender combined with the active electronics and grteat sound of the Musicman.

Given the value of these instruments today, I wouldn't do it again, but I'm glad I did at the time. The resultant guitar is absolutely spectacular.

Almost every time I've played it in public, somebody would comment on how good it sounded, and ask me what it was and where could they get one.

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My web site

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