LeGrande & Twin Reverb; sound is MEH bordering on BLAH!

Rich Upright · Post by **Rich Upright** » 9 Sep 2020 10:47 am

I have tried my LeGrande D-10 into my Ultralinear Twin Reverb w/orange frame JBL's, and I just can't get what I would call a good sound; there is no "throatiness" or bottom end sweetness. Just sounds blah, and from what I understand, that's supposed to be an awesome combination of tone. But my guitars through the same amp sound great; as does my LeGrande throught my Peavey Classic 30 or Renown 1-15".

Anyone play through a Twin Reverb...can you give me your tone settings? If I'm gonna need a truss & kill my gas mileage lugging this thing to a gig, I want some reward for it.
BTW I use a Matchbox & Boss RV on delay/reverb setting.

Dustin Rhodes · Post by **Dustin Rhodes** » 9 Sep 2020 11:19 am

What are your settings? General volume level? Freshness of your tubes?

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 9 Sep 2020 12:32 pm

I suggest this thread - https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=355751 and the Duncan Tone Stack Calculator, which is linked there but here it is - http://www.duncanamps.com/tsc/

The Twin Reverb tone stack is a bit counter-intuitive because the controls are very interactive. But I think the key is starting the treble around 3-4. I normally start with treble 3, mid 8, bass 2-3, and from that point the treble and bass controls are very sensitive in the sense that relatively small setting changes result in significant changes in tone. From there, if I increase the treble or bass, I get a robust increase in the treble or bass response and I generally tweak the bass so it's full but everything doesn't turn to mush. Treble 3-4 also increases the midrange dip frequency a bit, so instead of 500-600Hz, it's more like 700-800 Hz.

Some of this is also no doubt the speakers. My old blackface Twin has the original Jensen C12N's in it. With orange-frame JBLs, your settings might be a bit different than mine - they are IMO the ultimate pedal steel speaker if everything is jake with them. JBLs are so midrangey, you may need to reduce the mid from what I typically use with my Jensens. And with an ultralinear Twin, definitely dime the Master Volume, turn up the channel volume to a healthy level, and turn off the pull boost.

Brad Sarno went over all this quite a long time ago here - https://steelguitarforum.com/Forum11/HTML/005957.html - and no doubt some other threads. Changing the slope resistor is also a possibility if you really can't get a sound you like. But I've done it and I think it is fine stock.

If tweaking the tone controls like this through a range of values doesn't do it, I'd suspect something is not right. Tubes, power tube bias, electrolytic or coupling caps, other parts out of spec, those type of things.

Paul Sutherland · Post by **Paul Sutherland** » 9 Sep 2020 12:34 pm

I agree with Dustin that you need to consider the condition of your tubes, all of them. Also, have the filter caps been updated? They don't last forever. And is the bias set correctly?

My Twin is not an ultralinear so take my recommendations with grain of salt. When using JBLs, I run the treble at about 3 or less, mid from 6 to 8, and the bass at about 4 or less. The bright switch should be off. Then dial in reverb to taste. As Dave said, the treble and bass controls tend to be very sensitive. Small adjustments can make a huge difference. Too much bass make the bass sound flabby and mushy. Too much treble and the amp gets piercing in a hurry.

Having said that, there are some folks that advocate running the mids very low.

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 9 Sep 2020 1:03 pm

How old are those E Caps in that TWIN ? They will suck the tone right out of that amp, especially towards the bottom end.

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 9 Sep 2020 1:07 pm

I find most Twin Reverb amps sound great for Electric Guitar, but are often difficult for me personally to dial in a good Steel Tone.
Buddy Cage used to set all tone knobs to 7. And just go for it.
I have found some success dialing in a Steel tone by keeping the tone knobs all below 3 or 4. The tone knobs are very interactive in the 1-3 range, which is good in one way, but very touchy. These low knob settings allow you to crank the Volume knob up, which gets you a meatier tone to my ear.
I have a Twin Reverb, a Vibrosonic Reverb, and a Dual Showman Reverb, that I experiment with.

Nicholas Cox · Post by **Nicholas Cox** » 9 Sep 2020 1:24 pm

Dave Mudgett wrote:I suggest this thread - https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=355751 and the Duncan Tone Stack Calculator, which is linked there but here it is - http://www.duncanamps.com/tsc/

Thanks for posting that Dave. Iâ€™ve never heard of it.

Dale Rivard · Post by **Dale Rivard** » 9 Sep 2020 5:27 pm

My stock settings for my 68 Twin are, Bass-3, Middle-6 and Treble-4.5. Bright switch off. Volume between 5 and 8. Reverb between 3 and 4. This is with a Mullen G2 or Discovery.

Steve Spitz · Post by **Steve Spitz** » 9 Sep 2020 7:10 pm

Are you using an active pedal ?

Iâ€™m no tube guru, but I think:

steel, to pot pedal, to tube amp = maximum tube tone.

Depending on what youâ€™re after, a single coil pickup maybe a part of the equation. Also, Iâ€™d try without the buffer as well.

Maybe some of our twin users will comment.

As usual , solid advice from Dave M.

Rich Upright · Post by **Rich Upright** » 9 Sep 2020 9:23 pm

Thanks for all the replies, guys.
Yes; the tubes are brand new; maybe a couple hours playing time. The pedal is the standard Emmons clip on, so passive. I have never changed the caps, but the amp sounds great with guitar. I guess I should prolly get it "tuned up".
It doesn't sound bad per se; just not exciting for steel. Trying for that NRPS/Teach Your Children sound. I will try these settings y'all have listed; maybe that will help.

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 10 Sep 2020 12:53 am

Rich Upright wrote:Thanks for all the replies, guys.
Yes; the tubes are brand new; maybe a couple hours playing time. The pedal is the standard Emmons clip on, so passive. I have never changed the caps, but the amp sounds great with guitar. I guess I should prolly get it "tuned up".
It doesn't sound bad per se; just not exciting for steel. Trying for that NRPS/Teach Your Children sound. I will try these settings y'all have listed; maybe that will help.

I am guessing this amp is a 77, 78 or 80 ish , the Ultra Linear era. These amps have a slightly different TONE profile than a traditional Twin anyway. Not bad, just slightly different.

The amp age puts those E caps at +/-40 years old. The life expectancy of E Caps is +/- 15 years.

Technically what's happening is the HI DC supplied to each active circuit contains ripple or noise which is felt in every ACTIVE circuit, also called TUBES ! The amp is seriously underperforming.

It may very well sound pretty good with a 6 string guitar but you are not comparing apples to apples here.

Nice amp, change the caps ! Have the tech check the screen and grid resistors on those 4 x 6L6's as well. The heat on those sockets is massive which will indeed cause the values to drift.

Or just keep turning the tone knobs !

J Fletcher · Post by **J Fletcher** » 10 Sep 2020 5:14 am

Have you tried this amp on a job ? Might be a whole other story on the bandstand .

Dave Meis · Post by **Dave Meis** » 10 Sep 2020 8:33 am

lots of variables with speakers and pups, but I have Emmons, Sho-Buds, and Mullen with single coils, 705's, and the new Z pups (available on the forum) that all sound good through mine. It's UL, well serviced, and biased pretty cool at 30-32 mA. My settings are roughly: V5, T3, M8+, B4 running a VARIETY of speakers. I do find the JBLs I have run a little to the bright side. Cutting the Mids kills it..(I know..heresy)
Try turning the tone stack off, then turn up JUST the mids.. (I think you'll be surprised at how high you can go), then add Bass to taste, then Treble to get some 'glass' on the top. As you add treble, you may have to attenuate the Mids (they really work together). It's a VERY different tone stack from my other Fender amps.. very 'interactive'.
Hope this helps.. and thanks again for the Mullen plugs!

If you run the Volume lower, use the Bright Switch to restore the highs.

Jim Cooley · Post by **Jim Cooley** » 10 Sep 2020 9:44 am

...and if none of that works, just for grins, try setting the BASS at 3 1/2 to 4 1/2, MIDS at 2-ish, TREBLE at 5. Adjust from there. That's counter to turning the MIDS up and turning the BASS and TREBLE down as several here have suggested, but it can work. Since the MIDS and TREBLE affect each other, the effect can be subtle yet different. Try the BRIGHT switch. Some like it. Some don't.

If nothing suggested works, it probably worth a trip to an amp tech. That's not a bad idea anyway. It is a 40+ year old amplifier. I took my '72 Silverface Twin to a tech a few years ago, just on general principle. It sounded ok for six string guitar, but seemed to have lost its sparkle. It had never been serviced. He called me after he removed the chassis and told me "there was a fire in there."

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 10 Sep 2020 4:55 pm

Here's my starting settings...

Treble 3-4
Mid. 1-3
Bass 6-8 (I run it 8-10 most times,)

Volumes - it's critical you run them high for the best tone, so I'd run the volume at at least 6-8, and the master at 10. (I get best results with both at 10.)

I'd also suggest you ditch the matchbox. Adjust your tones with the volume pedal at the position it is when you're playing solos.

Paul Sutherland · Post by **Paul Sutherland** » 10 Sep 2020 6:00 pm

Rich: When you get this sorted out please let us know what worked for you.

Marc Muller · Post by **Marc Muller** » 11 Sep 2020 5:03 am

Rich Upright wrote:Trying for that NRPS/Teach Your Children sound.

You're shooting for the tone of one of the most idiosyncratic steelers ever, Jerry Garcia. People spend countless amounts of time and dollars trying to replicate his touch on guitar. Transferring that to steel is sorta like adding another level of difficult.
Keep in mind too, when listening to any vintage steel track, you're listening not only to the instrument in the hands of a musician and the amp they're using, but also to the tone coloring of all the vintage gear, mics, pres, compressors, and crazy amount of coloring 2 inch tape used to give. All lushly beautiful and to me, very missed in today's recording. Man, I so wish I could sound like the steels on the old Gram Parson records!

Marc Jenkins · Post by **Marc Jenkins** » 11 Sep 2020 8:10 am

Marc Muller wrote:
Rich Upright wrote:Trying for that NRPS/Teach Your Children sound.
You're shooting for the tone of one of the most idiosyncratic steelers ever, Jerry Garcia. People spend countless amounts of time and dollars trying to replicate his touch on guitar. Transferring that to steel is sorta like adding another level of difficult.

I can attest to this, just played a Dead tribute show last night, did a few on steel including Dire Wolf. That part is like nothing else!

I think you need to drop the Matchbox. Negates a lot of the tube tone and feel!