Russ Pahl - why Eb?

[Johnny Cox]

Russ, I have been experimenting with a universal tuning. A 13th that started in E then Eb and now down to D. I really like it there. It's very meaty sounding but still plenty country. I too use heavier strings. .015 to .064. My guitar plays better, stays in tune better and just feels better in D.

[John Brabant]

Russ discusses his effects in this article:

https://www.premierguitar.com/articles/ ... tar?page=3

[David Zornes]

Who am I to question a Pro on their tuning, but I've never had any issues with tuning to E. But then I'm one of the few left that still uses high G on the C6th tuning.

so do I Jack.

[Brett Lanier]

That fretboard of Pete's looks like a real life nightmare to me! I guess as long as you can get to the next chord...

I play in a band that tunes to Eb. It's really no problem, but it does highlight just how rare it is under normal circumstances to do a song in Eb, Gb, etc.

I will say that I don't love tuning my six string guitar down in that band, which is necessary. I've noticed that I lose a little ear/hand familiarity.

[Pete Burak]

That fretboard of Pete's looks like a real life nightmare to me! I guess as long as you can get to the next chord...

I play in a band that tunes to Eb. It's really no problem, but it does highlight just how rare it is under normal circumstances to do a song in Eb, Gb, etc.

I will say that I don't love tuning my six string guitar down in that band, which is necessary. I've noticed that I lose a little ear/hand familiarity.

Brett I forget if I met you at the Texas Steel Show when I was hangin with some of the other Vermont Steelers. I appreciate your thoughts and input.
I think you would actually love this fretboard idea!
I know Vermont, like Oregon, is a major Jam Band State, and there are tons of Jam Band songs in E and A.
When you tune to open-Eb, you get to play open-E and open-A with the Bar, at fret 1.
It's great!
It opens up the instrument so you can play an open-E and open-A just like you do on guitar.
I'm a life long guitar player also so I know what you mean about losing a little ear/hand familiarity.
My Fretboard idea syncs up all my existing familiarity between the two instruments.
I made that Fretboard prototype a few years ago in about a hour using a color copier/printer and a laminator at Kinkos.
Works great!
I have since had them professionally fabricated.
Playing along with Mellissa by the Allman Bros has never been so much fun.

[Brett Lanier]

Hi Pete, I haven't been to the Texas steel show, but it's possible we've met. You're right, there is a strong jam band presence up here. I do find myself in those situations from time to time! I think I play a lot of C6 on the modal jams, and blues.

I thought about your fretboard idea some more, and I would like to try it. I bet I could do an easy mock up on the back of an extra fretboard. It's almost like a short scale guitar, but with an extra fret . And your harmonics would be in different places, right?

[Ian Worley]

I tried the inverse of what Pete did once with an "Eb band", I made an overlay for my fret board so I could keep my guitar tuned to E but not get confused while watching their chords. It lasted one gig. I kept going for stuff on the first fret and it just wasn't there!



Brett - there is an online fretboard calculator tool here http://www.ekips.org/tools/guitar/fretfind2d/ that will layout and print an accurate-to-scale fretboard based on the parameters you input. If you have, or have access to, CAD or graphics software like Illustrator or CorelDraw you can save it as .eps or .dxf and edit to look however you like.

[Pete Burak]

Ian, fwiw, my recommendation for playing with a band that tunes to Eb, is to tune your entire Steel to Eb and use your original fretboard.

Brett, I do alot of Harmonics. They are all there in relationship to the bar. 12 frets above the bar being the most common, also 7 frets above the bar, and 5 frets above the bar. I pick the note and place my right hand palm 12 frets above the bar to get the harmonic, some guys use their ring finger or pinky to get the harmonic.

When I first thought about this fretboard, the purpose was to be able to play open-E (and all the other chords you can get using pedals and levers) at fret 1.
I made an observation that when I play an open-E on Steel, I have to lift my Bar off the neck, but when I play an open-E on Standard guitar, my fingers literally straddle fret-1. I don't lift my hand off the neck to play an open-E on Standard guitar tuning.
By tuning to Eb, I can also play an open-E at fret-1 on Steel, and use the Bar for vibrato, and slide to/from other chords without lifting the bar off the neck.
All I did then is place the fret markers where I have been used to seeing them for many years.
There is no change in scale length or fret placement.

[Gaylen James]

Im wondering how this downtuning effects pedal changes?
I really like the idea of have another usable E way down there.
Is it quick or do all the pedal changes have to be dealt with too?

[Rene Brosseau]

I did it once for a band for 1 night & never again! less tension on the strings, so raises would go sharp, lowers would go flat...OMG !!!...had to to major tuning on the levers & pedals...what a nightmare! it was as bad as playing next to a window air conditioner!

[Dustin Rhodes]

I did it once for a band for 1 night & never again! less tension on the strings, so raises would go sharp, lowers would go flat...OMG !!!...had to to major tuning on the levers & pedals...what a nightmare! it was as bad as playing next to a window air conditioner!

I mean I think most would assume some level of adjustment would be needed.

[Rene Brosseau]

Yes...but the adjustments don't stop for the whole night. I guess if you left it tuned like this for awhile the guitar would settle from less tension...

[Ian Rae]

It's one thing for 6-string players to detune, quite another for us. I have never been asked, but I know what I'd say

[Dustin Rhodes]

It's one thing for 6-string players to detune, quite another for us. I have never been asked, but I know what I'd say

If I walked on stage with my 6 string and dropped a half step on the spot I'd have tuning and setup issues as well.

[Pete Burak]

Im wondering how this downtuning effects pedal changes?
I really like the idea of have another usable E way down there.
Is it quick or do all the pedal changes have to be dealt with too?

Guys, I understand that some bands tune their instruments to Eb in order to drop all the vocals into the singers vocal range.
What I am talking about with tuning down to Eb, and using a modified fretboard, is for playing with bands that tune to Standard pitch E.

When you tune down a half step you have to tune every open note, pedal, and lever.
I would say it takes a minute or two for each string.
Then play along with some background tracks and get used to the overall change.
The new open-E and open-A should be easy to get used to. It takes a second to get used to open-F, and the A+F=D at fret-2, but that is to be expected wether you use a modified fretboard or your original. Either will work.
I would say any change like this takes more than one night to become accustomed to.
You may decide to use a slightly thicker gage string for some notes. The high G# can be a 12 no problem. String-5-B could be an 18 instead of 17 if that works better on your steel.
The pedals and levers will all feel a little lighter/faster.
The string tension change under the bar is not very noticeable in my experience.
My Sierra is a 25" Scale, and my Excel is 25.5, so a standard Uni set works fine.
It is not as drastic as changing from Emmons to Day setups, for example, which guys also do.
Some players are going to D9, which I have not tried but would imagine would require more of a string gage change.
In another example, players who use the Bb-Universal tuning are playing in Eb when they use the 9th side of their tuning. So open-E is at fret-1 in that case, too.

Gaylen, I will be back in Portland after Oct 6th, if you would like to meet for a demo.
I may have a modified fretboard that you can try on your axe, depending on scale length.
btw,I am a fellow Buddy Cage fan and love to play his style.
Pete

[Ian Worley]

Ian, fwiw, my recommendation for playing with a band that tunes to Eb, is to tune your entire Steel to Eb and use your original fretboard...

way ahead of you on that... I ended up dedicating one of my guitars, a BMI, to be tuned to Eb instead for that band, that was 4 or 5 years ago. I used the tool that D'Addario used to have up online to find the string proper gauges to match normal E9 string tension. That git just stays set up at their practice place. I still prefer playing my Emmons tho, and can play with the Eb folks while still in E, transposing in my head, but a bit more prone to error. I have also de-tuned it on occasion for gigs with them. It feels slightly sloppy with regular E9 strings but it's still workable. Just a minor 5-6 minute PITA to re-tune the pulls for the Eb gig, then tune everything back to E.

The fret board overlay experiment was just that, an experiment. I don't think the altered fret board thing is good solution in either direction. I get your logic for de-tuning in general, but there are pros and cons. The obvious "con" is having adjust your thinking when playing with others. The altered fret board is just a workaround to avoid having to transpose from plain old E9 in your head. If, like Russ suggested, one takes the time to thoroughly learn the fret board in the odd key (Eb or Bb or D or whatever) it might make you more competent in any key. If that works for you, or for Russ, more power to you. I just don't want to re-train my old brain. I already know where things are in regular old E9 and it works fine as-is, no workarounds needed (hence the de-tuned guitar).

[Ian Rae]

It's one thing for 6-string players to detune, quite another for us. I have never been asked, but I know what I'd say

If I walked on stage with my 6 string and dropped a half step on the spot I'd have tuning and setup issues as well.

Well there you are - what chance a guitar with pedals!

If I were involved with a band that tuned down I would just play a semitone lower as I really hate the open strings and seldom use them anyway. However if you do want to detune I can well see the virtue in having an instrument permanently in Eb to save all the hassle.

[Brett Lanier]

I do alot of Harmonics. They are all there in relationship to the bar. 12 frets above the bar being the most common, also 7 frets above the bar, and 5 frets above the bar. I pick the note and place my right hand palm 12 frets above the bar to get the harmonic, some guys use their ring finger or pinky to get the harmonic.

Sorry I wasn't more clear... I meant the natural harmonics of the whole neck, which would look like fret 6, 8, and 13 with the markers on your fretboard(i think?). For example,,, I ended a tune last night on an E chord at fret 7, picked behind the bar for a sort of harp effect. That moment surely would have passed me by if I had to do any extra math.

For the most part, I think of music by intervals and the number system. But I do use open strings, and I usually think of the name of the note in my head to double check it's not a clam before I play it. You might find that if you start using open strings more, you'll figure out a way to get them sounding more in tune. Kind of like using a capo with guitar. Pretty cool solution you've come up with though!

[Pete Burak]

That all sounds good, Guys!
Again I think the main reason a Steel player would tune down to Eb9 is because they find it advantageous for their style of playing to be able to slide to/from open-E and open-A chords (and all them other chords n licks you can get down there) without lifting the bar.

[Ian Rae]

That's why I like B6 - C is away from the nut.
Not so many tunes in B.