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Topic: Have I been tuning wrong? |
Andrew Goulet
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Posted 2 Sep 2020 7:52 am |
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| Just wondering about tempered tuning vs. "straight" tuning. I always just tune strings to the note; should I be flatting some strings? Never really occurred to me until I started watching some videos about it. |
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Jim Pitman
From:
Waterbury Ctr. VT 05677 USA
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Posted 2 Sep 2020 7:58 am
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Straight up tuning results in 3rds beating which sounds objectionable to most ears. Generally tempered tuning flats the 3rds, ie G#. There are many ways to achieve 3rd intervals on a PSG so flatting them all can be quite involved.
My Peterson Strobostomp tuner has a tempered tuning setting specifically for a universal 12 built in. The results are spot on, however I haven't figured out how to get it to display the offsets which disturbs my sensibilities a bit. - someday. |
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Tucker Jackson
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
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Posted 2 Sep 2020 8:16 am
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Tuning is one of those things we don't all agree on. There are many options and they're all valid in the right hands. In the end, everyone picks what they like best and they roll with it.
You can make 'straight up to zero' on the tuner work for sure. But you might want to try a 'sweetened' tuning as Jim suggests to see if you like it.
Most pedal steelers do not tune straight up... they tune various ways where the major third intervals end up a little flat compared to what the tuner shows because it sounds smoother. For example, if you tuned by ear, this would be your result.
As canned charts go, B0b's "Quick and Easy" is great. It's a middle ground that gets you most of the advantages of sweetening while avoiding some of its pitfalls:
https://b0b.com/wp/2018/08/quick-and-easy-e9th-tempered-tuning/
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Doug Beaumier
From:
Northampton, MA
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Dick Wood
From:
Springtown Texas, USA
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Posted 2 Sep 2020 10:11 am
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Since there is no adjustable saddles like all guitars have to adjust for intonation,a steel has to be tuned to compensate for that fact using offsets.
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Cops aren't paid much so I steel at night. |
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Jim Kennedy
From:
Brentwood California, USA
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Posted 2 Sep 2020 10:31 am
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When I first got my guitar I tuned "straight up," played a few chords and tweaked accordingly. When it sounded good and was in tune with other instruments I was satisfied. I am assuming before the days of electronic tuners that is how it was done. I am also a believer in being able to tune to a reference note without a tuner. If you can't hear if you are in tune or not, with yourself, and the band, a tuner won't do much good. I eventually got a Stroboflip tuner and now use the sweetened e9 tuning. It takes out the "guess work." Tuners are great, but, IMHO, you have to be able to hear that you are in tune as well, a skill that takes time to develop.
_________________
ShoBud Pro 1, 75 Tele, 85 Yamaha SA 2000, Fender Cybertwin, |
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Paul Sutherland
From:
Placerville, California
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Posted 2 Sep 2020 12:08 pm
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If when you listen back to a recording of your playing you are in tune, then your tuning method is just fine. If it's not in tune, then you need to change something. Playing in tune is what counts, not how you get there.
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It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing. |
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Andrew Goulet
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Posted 2 Sep 2020 1:21 pm
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| Thanks, all, for the thoughts (and the kind words, Doug!) I've found some great threads on here about this so I'll be reading through those. I may dip my toe in by flatting my thirds a few cents and seeing what that does. |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 2 Sep 2020 2:21 pm
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Trust your ears - that's what the audience is using.
If it sounds right, it is right.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Stu Schulman
From:
Ulster Park New Yawk (deceased)
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Posted 3 Sep 2020 12:50 am
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I'm with Doug Beaumier!
_________________
Steeltronics Z-pickup,Desert Rose S-10 4+5,Desert Rose Keyless S-10 3+5... Mullen G2 S-10 3+5,Telonics 206 pickups,Telonics volume pedal.,Blanton SD -10,Emmons GS_10...Zirctone bar,Bill Groner Bar...any amp that isn't broken.Steel Seat.Com seats...Licking paint chips off of Chinese Toys since 1952. |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 3 Sep 2020 10:18 am
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I think most people are - start with ET and sweeten it.
I prefer to tune by ear, but I'm old-fashioned and don't like unnecessary gadgets.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Dave Hopping
From:
Aurora, Colorado
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Posted 3 Sep 2020 10:50 am
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A tweak... For many years I tuned the E's to 440 and the thirds to about 436.5, according to Don Edwards' tuning setup (which I think is a variation on Jeff Newman's). Had a problem with playing flat, and happened on a more recent Newman setup, which has everything about 2.5 Hz higher. Solved the playing-flat issue on the spot. Would that my other playing issues had that easy a fix! 
Here's a scan of Jeff's tuning chart
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Andrew Goulet
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Posted 3 Sep 2020 12:55 pm
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| Thanks, Bob! I have that chart bookmarked. I don't have a strobe tuner. I'll have to pull out the old Boss and see if I can make that work. |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 3 Sep 2020 1:17 pm
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If it sounds good, then you're not tuning "wrong". But I will say that when I spent a lot of time focusing on carefully listening to the differences between different approaches to tuning and how they affected the way I play, I think I was able to make things sound better, and be able to do that more predictably. For me, it's always a challenge - the more I work on hearing pitch discrepencies and playing in tune, the more I notice pitchiness, especially in my own playing. But I think thing have gotten better - when I go back to stuff I did early on, tuning pretty straight ET, I pretty much cringe. I'm sure a lot of that was my playing, but I noticed the issues back then but didn't really know what to do about it.
I sometimes use a standard ET tuner or a Peterson Strobo Stomp with the sweetened settings to quickly get things in the ballpark. I usually am centered a bit sharp - typically 441 or 442 Hz - but that also depends on where the band pitch center is. Sometimes they're a bit sharp or flat overall, especially if there's a harmonica in the mix - off-the-shelf, they tend to play flat. But I really need to fine tune everything by ear. In the end, I have to deal with playing in tune largely with my ears. When I check on a meter, I wind up pretty close to but not exactly in just tuning. My F-lever is generally quite flat (as JI requires) and I have to center sharp of the fret marker to get the A+F in tune.
Definitely - peruse the old "tuning threads". I think experimenting with tuning is a good idea. But it all comes down to whether or not it sounds good in a mix. |
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Len Amaral
From:
Rehoboth,MA 02769
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Posted 3 Sep 2020 3:58 pm
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I have the Peterson Stroborack with the U-12 preset. Very impressed. I used the Boss TU-12 needle tuner for years with the Jeff Newman compensated tuning and that was pretty good.
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I survived the sixties! |
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Doug Beaumier
From:
Northampton, MA
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Andrew Frost
From:
Toronto, Ontario
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Posted 8 Sep 2020 1:40 am
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I agree with Paul that the goal is to play in tune. Tuning methods can help you in getting there. The rest is in your hands and ears.
Steel guitar ( and other non-fixed pitch instruments like voice and violin) has the capacity & ability to play in pure, natural harmonny where applicable, whereas a piano does not.
The various tuning charts and tuning presets you'll see attempt to get us closer to a starting point from which realizing that harmonic potential is a little easier in ways.
Most of the musical contexts I play in are more or less based in western Equal Temperament and I'm sure this is the case for most players. So the challenge is bringing the sweetness of pure harmony into that realm where ever possible and appropriate.
There is a lot of beauty and order in Equal Temperment and it is what we're conditioned to hear as "in-tune" from birth, particularly in melodic single note intervalic spacing. So this plays a key role in how you intuitively play the instrument, and the approach you settle on for tuning up, which is a little bit different for everyone.
There is no wrong way about it as long as your ears are open and you care about it.
But exploring and coming to understand approaches to tuning and intonation is a significant aspect of steel guitar playing in my opinion.
Last edited by Andrew Frost on 8 Sep 2020 8:25 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Lee Baucum
From:
McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier
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Posted 8 Sep 2020 3:51 am
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| Quote: |
| Have I been tuning wrong? |
Regardless of how you tune, some will say the answer to that question is "Yes".
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 8 Sep 2020 4:39 am Re: Have I been tuning wrong?
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| Andrew Goulet wrote: |
| Just wondering about tempered tuning vs. "straight" tuning. I always just tune strings to the note; should I be flatting some strings? Never really occurred to me until I started watching some videos about it. |
Electronic tuners are normally "tempered" for a straight guitar. So, if you're tuning "straight up" using a tuner, that's just another version of tempering. Since pedal steel guitars are played differently (you're not pushing certain strings down to fret them), they require a different amount of "tempering" (the "sweetening" many players refer to) for them to sound good. There is also "just intonation" or "JI", which means tuning everything beatless. Fewer players use that, but it still works very well if you compensate with the bar, and realize that certain chords are to be minimalised or avoided.
The westernized human ear really prefers beatless intervals, and people's tolerance for tempered turnings varies. Tuning is a learned skill, though, and you will likely hone, adapt, and change your method. |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 8 Sep 2020 7:09 am Re: Have I been tuning wrong?
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| Donny Hinson wrote: |
| Electronic tuners are normally "tempered" for a straight guitar. |
Donny, are you implying that a guitar tuner is not strictly ET, and that if you tuned the individual strings from a keyboard you'd get a wrong result?
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Justin Emmert
From:
Greensboro, NC
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Posted 8 Sep 2020 7:49 am
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My two cents, for what its worth. If you really want to learn about tuning, a one month subscription to one of the pro learning sites (Paul Franklin and/or Travis Toy) would set you straight pretty quickly. Heck, try both and see which one you like. I'm sure you could find the same info here on the forum, but the cost of one month is well worth the knowledge gained and time saved searching and sorting through the forum. Not to mention, there's plenty other stuff to learn there.....
After that, you just have to learn to play in tune!  |
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Andrew Frost
From:
Toronto, Ontario
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Posted 8 Sep 2020 9:01 am
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The terminology is important here but perhaps a little counter-intuitive.
For what its worth, a "tempered tuning" is a tuning system or temperament that has been altered from a pure system of beatless intervals.
Equal Temperment is therefore a tempered tuning. The only interval that is not altered in ET is the octave.
As such, Just Intonation is not considered to be a tempered tuning.
The B and G# you can hear, audibly ringing inside a single E string are examples of PURE intervals but would show up slightly 'out' on a straight up ET tuner. |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 8 Sep 2020 2:30 pm
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Yes, Andrew, that's an important point.
It's too easy to assume that Equal Temperament is in a general sense "normal" and that deviations from it represent some sort of tinkering. The contrary is true, and ET could just as well be called MT (most tampered).
I tune using beatless intervals because I'm also a trombonist and I'm thus programmed to eliminate beats. Sustaining a chord with lumps in gives me no pleasure.
I'm also a mathematician so I know the limitations of JI and how to avoid them.
BTW, on a tuner the natural B would read slightly off but the G# would show way flat. I believe that ET would not have found favour if its fourths and fifths hadn't turned out to be reasonably close to the natural ones.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 8 Sep 2020 5:28 pm Re: Have I been tuning wrong?
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| Ian Rae wrote: |
| Donny Hinson wrote: |
| Electronic tuners are normally "tempered" for a straight guitar. |
Donny, are you implying that a guitar tuner is not strictly ET, and that if you tuned the individual strings from a keyboard you'd get a wrong result? |
Exactly, there is no one "correct" ET! Once you understand that "temper" is actually a measurement of the amount out of tune from "perfect" (JI), it all becomes clear. And now you also know why there are so many different tempers or offsets for pedal steelers. Everybody's got his own choice of offsets that works best for him. However, things like scale length, string gauges, bar pressure, and the amount of cabinet drop can all change the amount of tempering required to make the guitar sound in-tune, or at least close to in-tune. |
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