Rescue the rookie!

[Matthew Murdoch]

Rank beginner. I have read every post I could find on this fine forum about what is the right guitar to begin learning pedal steel. What a great resource, you have taught me much. Therefore, a poll question:

IF you had to choose between:

MSA 12 string extended E9 with 3 pedals and 5 levers with MSA humbucker

OR

MSA 12 string ext. Ep with 4x4 and a Wallace True Tune single coil,

your advice would be?

Thanks for all the advice in advance! Glad to be here on the forum

[Gene Tani]

Depends on the individual steels, here's a couple questions to ask yourself https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtop ... 28#1871728

[Matthew Murdoch]

Hehe. thx Gene, shoulda known it would get harder before it got easier...

[Gene Tani]

Maybe try to enlist an experienced player to test/play them, dunno where you are but here's the Boise listing

https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/memberl ... start=1620

[Jim Pitman]

I had the MSA "Universl". I always thought the tone of that guitar was dark compared to other PSGs. I concluded it was likely due to the cabinet and neck being made of thicker than average wood.
With that in mind I'd avoid a hum-bucker and go for a single coil like the Wallace True Tone.
FYI, I had the George L, dual coil Pentad pickup in my MSA which has all kinds (5) of wiring possibilities including both single coil and humbucker. I always preferred the single coil wiring scheme.

[Jack Stoner]

For a newbie, I wouldn't be looking at a 12 string. 10 strings are challenging enough for getting the basics.

[Donny Hinson]

I have to agree with Jack, here. The simplest way to start is with an S10 with 3+4 or 3+5. The 12-string steels are nowhere near as popular, and that really narrows your choices when selecting a guitar. It also greatly reduces the amount of learning materials that are available. (I'd guess only one in twenty players...or less, are using 12-string guitars.) Beginners also shouldn't be worrying about things like pickups, 14-hole pullers, or types of cross-shafts. Whatever is on there will work fine until you learn how to play.

While the post by Richard Burton (referenced in Gene Tani's post, above) is extensive, IMHO a beginner shouldn't worry about most of that stuff. A good number of players here seem to know very little about mechanics, and if you're not well versed in the subject, discussions about raw materials and design are moot.

Select a guitar (preferably an all-pull model), and have it checked out by an experienced player if possible. If you can't do that, have someone knowledgeable make a recommendation or give an opinion on what you're planning to buy.

[Matthew Murdoch]

Great stuff gentlemen. Much appreciated!

[Nicholas Cox]

You can always switch the pickup out later so don’t worry about that too much.

[Dave Mudgett]

It sounds like you have narrowed down to a choice between two MSA 12-string guitars with Extended E9 setups. So between the two, I'd first consider a few important things:

1. Condition and playability first. IMO, that is the most important thing. Price may also factor in, as well as the ability to have an experienced player check it out. But get a guitar that you don't have to be fooling around with. At the beginning, you want to spend all your time learning to play, not diddling around under the hood. If you can, sit behind each guitar and see which one fits you better. Is it high enough for you? Are the pedals and levers located so you can work them comfortably?

2. Version of MSA guitar. I personally think the later solid-wood versions are generally better than the plywood Classics. Set up properly, they're all good mechanically, but I think there are tonal and sometimes weight differences between them. MSAs tend to be heavy.

3. Other things being equal, I think 3+5 (3-pedals, 5-levers) is more useful than 4+4. A pickup swap is a lot easier and cheaper than adding an additional lever, and I think having 5 levers is really useful. I agree that I'd much rather have a True Tone than an MSA Supersustain pickup. But it's a piece of cake to change it any time down the road.

Once you get past those important issues - as far as playing a 12-string Extended E9, I see absolutely no problem starting out like that. The top 10 strings are exactly the same as a standard 10-string E9 guitar. All E9 instruction material can be carried over to Extended E9 without any change whatsoever. You just have two extra strings that you will probably ignore when you first start, along with strings 9 and 10. I think most new players focus on strings 3-8, to start. There's a ton to work on to get the basic bar technique, blocking, A+B pedals, and then E+F levers going with those 6 strings.

I think the biggest impediment to going to 12 strings is if you start out on 10. If you start out on 12, it should become second nature very quickly. And there are lots of uses for the two low strings.

None of this is to say that a 10-string E9 guitar is bad - they're just fine. But it sounds like you've already narrowed down to these 12-strings, and I see no problem with that, provided they are in good playable shape. But if you're still open to impression, there are a bunch of threads - including many recent ones - detailing many aspects of picking a good pedal steel to start out with.

[Benjamin Davidson]

Either of those guitars would work. I'd lean toward the one with 5 knee levers, not knowing anything further about the specifics.

What models are those two guitars? What style do you intend to play?

Condition of the guitars, and proper setup would be higher priority questions.

As to weather a beginner should start on a 12 string, you dont need to play the bottom 2 string immediately. However you cant play them if they aren't there. I've been studying up and getting the most put of my 10 string, but starting with a 12 would have been easier for me.

[Jerry Overstreet]

First, do you know if you have aspiations toward playing a 12 string guitar? If not, I would hold out for a more modern guitar.

When beginners ask me about first guitars, I tell them to avoid old builds unless they're just looking for something specific.

Those old MSA guitars from the 70s are plentiful. They're also heavy and in many cases clunky and in need of set ups and/or repairs as are some of the other makes as well.

My suggestion is for a modern build still in service in case you need support or parts. Of course your budget will determine a lot.

The recent Stage One guitars are reasonable and playable right out of the box. Justice buils a S10 Jr. that is configurable to 3 and 4 at a reasonable price too. Mullen Discovery are nice also but a bit pricier. These are single neck 10 string models on a single body that will work on a professional level.

I would say buy as modern and as upgraded a guitar as your budget would allow to begin with.
My opinion FWIW.

[Ian Rae]

What style do you intend to play?

That's a good question, but you might not know the answer.
I started because I wanted to play country music, but seven years down the road I've played everything else but!

I began on a twin-neck because it was all that was available and soon got hooked on the C6. Shortly after that I went universal, and although I have no strong view on whether a beginner should tackle twelve strings, I don't see why not - as others have stated you can ignore things until you need them

[Matthew Murdoch]

Great opinions all. Thank you. Will continue the search if I can find someone within 100 miles of me where I can sit down with an instrument!

OK to close this one b0b1

[Jim Pitman]

I'll get flack for this but:
I recall going to my first PSG convention in St Louis at age 27. Guys like me, Pete Burak, and Mike Perlowin stuck out like sore thumbs because of our young age, but we all embraced the 12 string universally tuned guitar. I thought for sure the double neck would die a quick death at the time.
I certainly can understand preferring a double neck if that is what you started out on, but I'm amazed a new player would intentionally buy a double neck guitar anymore.
Two of the most technically advanced PSGs makers, Excel and Sierra sell very few double neck guitars. I don't believe Sierra offers one anymore in fact.

[Fred Treece]

I started on 10 string E9 4 years ago, made the jump to S12 about 8 months ago. I have no regrets about following this path. The additional strings weren’t as much of a conundrum as the differences in pedal and lever configuration, to which I am still adapting.

I think a 12-string beginner might be harder for a teacher to teach, but if the player himself has set himself up for the challenge of learning on his own, then the difference between 10 and 12 isn’t going to amount to much. I look at my experience this way - even though the copedent on my 12 is very different from the 10, there is only one change on the lower 2 strings of the 12 (G# > A on string 11). Everything else on strings 11 & 12 involves playing them open. And it sure is fun having those big fat low notes!

[Dennis Montgomery]

I'm another 12 string player who's going to chime in. I had a few 10 strings over the years but never seemed to get very far. Then I took a detour to an 8 string Fender 400 about 5 years ago and things seemed to click (mostly with the resources of this forum). When I decided to buy something new about 3 years ago I went with a 12 string extended E9 (I tune it down to D9) and have never regretted the decision once.

When I was deciding whether to order a 10 or 12, I figured the advantage of ordering a 12 is that you can always remove the 2 low strings if it's too much...but if you order a 10 you can never add 2 strings to make it a 12

And getting back to one of the OP's questions, I would definitely choose a 3x5 over a 4x4. I find a surprising amount of times that Left Vertical knee change (strings 5 & 10 - one half step) is exactly in the right place!

[Matthew Murdoch]

Very much obliged to all who chimed in on this issue. This forum is a tremendous resource.

I pulled the trigger on a late 90's 12 string MSA which is called "The Universal" but is a 3x5 extended E9 in reality.


From Jim Palenscar at Steel Guitars of North County in Oceanside, CA. Great guy, very patient with the Rookie

Special shout out to Mike Perlowin for some special legwork which helped immensely.

If there's interest I'll let you know how its going...
Thanks again to all who posted

Matt

[Dennis Montgomery]

Congratulations Matt, you now have a beautiful pedal steel!

I think a 12 string extended E9 3x5 is an excellent foundation to build your pedal steel life on. In fact, you could spend the rest of your life with that configuration and never get bored! Another great thing about extended E9 is there are literally tons of tablature and teaching materials that directly apply to the top 10 strings. As time goes by, you'll get the feel of how to easily extend that tab and teaching concepts to include those 2 bass strings...and after awhile, you'll wonder how you could ever live without them

Great choice...welcome to the club

[Ian Rae]

Its true that although I play a full universal, one of the things I love best is the extra depth in the E9 sounds

[Matthew Murdoch]

Um, I think I meant early 80's on my MSA. Another guitar I looked at was late 90's. I'm sure that makes more sense to the long timers out there

[David Hodan]

You chose a great guitar IMHO. If you get bored with the EXtE9 you can make it a full Uni again. If you send an e-mail with the SN to Kyle Bennett (kyle@msapedalsteels.com) he can tell you when it was born and to whom. Don't listen to anyone who tells you there is little teaching material for 12 string. With minor adjustments in your grips and starting point all E9 and C6 material applies to the E9/B6 Universal copedent. Have Fun, and join us for the TSGA Jamboree March 11-14,2021.

Dave H.
Texas Steel Guitar Association
www.texassteelguitar.org

[George Kimery]

Great information. Steve, looks like 17.5 is right on the money. I just found out the guitar I'm getting, the pickup had gone bad, so the original single coil was replaced with a George L, which I believe is a humbucker. I've never cared for humbuckers. I think part of the Emmons pp sound is in those old single coil pickups. I will have to see if I can find one to replace the George L.

Thanks to everybody that responded.

[Fred Treece]

Whoops, wrong topic, George.

[Gene Tani]

Matthew

Excellent choice, your steel will play and sound great. He's recently gone over a couple steels for me and they play and sound great (ok, i'm repetitive... )