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Topic: Alternative C6 tuning |
Peter Leavenworth
From:
Madbury, New Hampshire, USA
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Posted 21 Aug 2020 6:48 pm |
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I just bought a D-10 that came with this C6 tuning and I was wondering if anyone else tuned their lower neck like this.
I understand that this was developed by Buddy Emmons later in his career. It's FACDEGACED, low to high; the usual low C is eliminated, the F moved to the 10 string position and a low D added between the low E and C as well as high D instead of G.
After using the more usual C6 tuning of CFACEGACEG (or high D) for some 40 years, I find this tuning, plus the changes on this guitar, much more useful.
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2008 Zum D-10, 1996 Mullens PRP D-10, 1974 Emmons D-10, 1976 Emmons D-10, early 70s Emmons GS-10, Milkman Sideman head w/Telonics 15" speaker, 1966 Fender Super Reverb, 1970 Fender Dual Showman head, Wechter/Scheerhorn and Beard Dobros, 1962 Supro lap steels, Gibson 1939 RB-11 banjo, Gibson 1978 RB-250
banjo......and way too much more |
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scott murray
From:
Asheville, NC
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scott murray
From:
Asheville, NC
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Posted 22 Aug 2020 12:19 am
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guess I was wrong about Stu. if I understand correctly he tuned CDFACEGACE
he talks about it at the beginning of this video:
https://youtu.be/nu47dWioSZM
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1965 Emmons S-10, 3x5 • Emmons LLIII D-10, 10x12 • JCH D-10, 10x12 • Beard MA-8 • Oahu Tonemaster |
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Scott Swartz
From:
St. Louis, MO
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Posted 23 Aug 2020 12:01 pm
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I have seen this tuning called C13, and is or has been used by players including Wayne Dahl and Terry Crisp. I also use it but not putting myself in a league with those guys. You lose the strummable Western swing licks but you gain lots of stacked fourth options and a very logical layout for scales with no bar movement. For the way I use the c neck I much prefer it to the standard.
Here is the Wayne Dahl copedent
https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=277804&highlight=terry+crisp
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Scott Swartz
Steeltronics - Steel Guitar Pickups
www.steeltronics.com |
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Bob Hoffnar
From:
Austin, Tx
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Posted 23 Aug 2020 1:20 pm
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Peter,
That is the tuning that I use for my C neck. It works for me, I got the idea from Paul Franklin when he suggested I add a pedal to the standard tuning that does that. I found myself leaving that pedal engaged all the time. I did quite a bit of research and spent some time talking with Buddy Emmons about it. He was very encouraging and helpful explaining the gives and takes. On a basic level it turns the entire neck into a pentatonic scale.
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Bob |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Peter Leavenworth
From:
Madbury, New Hampshire, USA
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Posted 23 Aug 2020 2:53 pm Alternative C6 tuning
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You guys are correct about limiting, or eliminating, the broad strums for Western swing but that’s what I’ve nearly been stuck with for many years - my fault. This tuning changes how I think about playing swing and jazz music. There’s still a remnant pocket of the former tuning in strings 2 thru 5 and if you want to add lower notes you just grip instead of strum. I keep other D-10s tuned the more usual way so that I can play and solo comfortably on songs I do with bands I’ve been with a long time. Thanks for the info on the origins of this tuning. This Zum came with a knee lever that does the pentatonic scale change.
Pete
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2008 Zum D-10, 1996 Mullens PRP D-10, 1974 Emmons D-10, 1976 Emmons D-10, early 70s Emmons GS-10, Milkman Sideman head w/Telonics 15" speaker, 1966 Fender Super Reverb, 1970 Fender Dual Showman head, Wechter/Scheerhorn and Beard Dobros, 1962 Supro lap steels, Gibson 1939 RB-11 banjo, Gibson 1978 RB-250
banjo......and way too much more |
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Peter Leavenworth
From:
Madbury, New Hampshire, USA
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Posted 24 Aug 2020 5:40 pm Alternative C6 tuning
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Nice bluesy use of C6, Bob. You almost wouldn't think it was pedal steel - shows how versatile the tuning is. Are you playing the Sho-Bud or the Zum?
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2008 Zum D-10, 1996 Mullens PRP D-10, 1974 Emmons D-10, 1976 Emmons D-10, early 70s Emmons GS-10, Milkman Sideman head w/Telonics 15" speaker, 1966 Fender Super Reverb, 1970 Fender Dual Showman head, Wechter/Scheerhorn and Beard Dobros, 1962 Supro lap steels, Gibson 1939 RB-11 banjo, Gibson 1978 RB-250
banjo......and way too much more |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 25 Aug 2020 12:41 am
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There's a definite trade-off between the melodic possibilities of a D string and keeping the traditional grips, which I prefer a clear 51% of the time.
On my unis, the A pedal is in position 3 so I can at least get that note if I need it.
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Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Paul Sutherland
From:
Placerville, California
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Posted 25 Aug 2020 11:52 pm
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What would this tuning look like if you had 5 floor pedals and 2 knee levers to work with?
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It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing. |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 26 Aug 2020 7:15 am
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| Peter Leavenworth wrote: |
| Nice bluesy use of C6, Bob. You almost wouldn't think it was pedal steel - shows how versatile the tuning is. Are you playing the Sho-Bud or the Zum? |
Williams crossover 5+5
| Paul Sutherland wrote: |
| What would this tuning look like if you had 5 floor pedals and 2 knee levers to work with? |
On mine, the only change I made beyond the standard was on the C# lever. Instead of raising the middle C, I lowered the middle D to C#. It worked very well. Here's my full 12-string copedent from that guitar. I had that change on LKL.
Another good idea for a 10-string is to lower the 10th string F to D on P5 (P2 on my chart above). The low D as a root tone is more useful than the low F#. Also, it eliminate hysteresis on that string.
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-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Paul Sutherland
From:
Placerville, California
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Posted 26 Aug 2020 11:29 am
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Let me restate my question: What are the essential changes to this E13 tuning (10 strings) and what are the lesser important changes?
From the Wayne Dahl copedent floor pedals 6-9 look pretty straight forward. And many of the knee levers shown are fairly normal variations for a normal C6th tuning. But what is essential for the tuning to make sense with the addition of the middle D string?
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It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing. |
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Scott Swartz
From:
St. Louis, MO
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Posted 26 Aug 2020 1:04 pm
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I predominantly use it for the scale possibilities, its the missing scale note in various scale positions. I would rather have those notes available than the low C string down in bass player range.
I do not have any changes on it but the ones that would make sense would similar to the the F# strings on E9. You could lower it like b0b for the "F lever on E9" position. You could raise to Eb for the F9 dom 7, similar to F#s to G on E9 although thats covered on pedal 6.
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Scott Swartz
Steeltronics - Steel Guitar Pickups
www.steeltronics.com |
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Paul Sutherland
From:
Placerville, California
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Posted 26 Aug 2020 1:20 pm
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Thanks Scott. I hear you saying that the middle D doesn't have to have any changes on it for the tuning to essentially work. And I surmise that normal C6th changes would all work without anything special added. I'm just trying to get some level of cognitive certainty before tearing my Emmons PP apart. That's not an easy thing to do, like with an all pull guitar.
I've thought for many years that the low C string on the normal C6th tuning was pretty worthless. It's pushing the limits of any changer and of the string. Plus with what very little I play C6th I find I rarely touch the string. It's almost a waste of time even trying to tune it. Emphasis on "trying" to tune it, as the hystersis is significant. As Scott mentioned, there's no need to get into the bass guitar players range. This C13 tuning seems like a good idea, but I've never tried it.
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It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing. |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 26 Aug 2020 2:04 pm
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Calling it a C13th is simply wrong, as there is no Bb in it. That's an essential note of a C13 chord. If you had to give it a different name, "C Pentatonic" or "C69" would be more appropriate. Of course, all of those names ignore the low F, as does the traditional "C6th" moniker.
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-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Scott Swartz
From:
St. Louis, MO
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Posted 26 Aug 2020 7:53 pm
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Paul you could test this tuning by removing the low C, moving the FAC over one slot, insert the D string, and tune out the changes on the strings 10 through 7. If the new 7th string D and 8th string C are held constant and everything above that works normally you get 90% of what the full tuning would be. With P5, P6, and raise and lower A and C on strings 4,3 you will get convenient pentatonic and R 2 3 5 dom7 scales from strings 1 to 7 in various locations.
Another way to think about this tuning is to think of it as a lower E9 tuning with different jazzy sounding changes than normal E9. With the D note in there it feels much more like E9 to me.
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Scott Swartz
Steeltronics - Steel Guitar Pickups
www.steeltronics.com |
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Paul Sutherland
From:
Placerville, California
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Posted 26 Aug 2020 9:02 pm
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Scott: It occurred to me that making the changes was really not that hard on my push-pull. I did exactly what you described and everything is working. There is some hardware that could be removed, but right now it's just disconnected and out of the way.
I have all the Wayne Dahl changes on his pedals 6-9, except for the pulls on the first and sixth strings of P9. I suppose those could be added later. I have knees that lower the 3rd a half tone and raise the 4th a half tone, but that's it. My C6th was pretty sparse to begin with. I will never be a serious jazz player, and I'm okay with that.
I immediately noticed that the tuning felt something like the E9 neck in that there is a tonic on the 8th string, and the next two strings up are each a full tone higher, just like on E9.
It's a good thing I don't have any gigs right now. This is going to take some time.
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It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing.
Last edited by Paul Sutherland on 27 Aug 2020 8:09 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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George Kimery
From:
Limestone, TN, USA
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Posted 27 Aug 2020 4:02 am Alternate C6 tuning
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| I tune mine to B6 instead of C6. This way, I play on the same frets for both necks. I like to have C on the first fret instead of in the open position. C is like playing in F on the E9, D is like playing in G, E is like playing in A , etc. This makes more sense to me and I have never understood the logic of C6 being the standard instead of B6. |
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