Relocating pedals on a MSA Classic

Steven Golding · Post by **Steven Golding** » 29 Jun 2020 5:39 am

hey guys Iâ€™m a newb to the pedal steel very excited however. I just picked up my first steel, a 70s MSA Classic this thing is built like a tank. Other than some house keeping and a little TLC she is ready to go. I just have a few questions I was hoping some of yaâ€™ll could help me with.

Iâ€™ve noticed that most single neck steels have only three pedals this model has five. What is the advantage/ purpose of the extra two? Also the pedals are located in the center of the rack near to volume pedal. On the rack there are empty brackets machined for additional pedals, Also under the guitar body there are holes already drilled out for the pull sting mechanism. it appears I should be able to relocate everything to the left hand side.
Would moving the entre apparatus over be an easy procedure? Would I have to replace anything like rods spring?
Thank you

Jerry Overstreet · Post by **Jerry Overstreet** » 29 Jun 2020 6:53 am

Hard to say without seeing some pics. Your foot pedals should be in position so that your knee levers are easily accessible to operate in conjunction with the pedals....or does your guitar have them?

The extra two pedals are a bonus once you figure out how they fit into the basics. A player may have had them set up to suit their own playing methods.

Moving hardware like this will require different lengths of pull rods at the very least.

Tommy Mc · Post by **Tommy Mc** » 29 Jun 2020 7:09 am

Hi Steve. I'm not an expert, but I do own a 1980 MSA which would be pretty similar construction to yours. I have moved changes around, and mounted a vertical lever, so have a little experience. The fact that your pedal bar has extra unused brackets makes me wonder if your steel was converted from a double-neck. Is it tuned to E9? Anyway, having the brackets pre-installed will make it a little easier to move pedals to the left. As to the purpose of 5 pedals, what do they do now? Generally 3 or 4 is standard for an E9 tuning, but you can always find something do do with an extra pedal or two. As a beginner, you should probably concentrate on three for now. Also, you may not need to move all the pedals, just the ones farthest to the right. It's possible that at least one or two will end up being in the right location anyway.

Physically re-mounting the pedals isn't going to be rocket science, but fine-tuning the changes can be fussy work. If you're going to attempt this yourself, start by mapping out exactly where things are going to go. Make sure you understand how each change works. Take lots of photos before you start, and pay particular attention to which bell crank holes each pull rod is connected to. That's crucial to the timing of the pulls. As far as parts go, the only thing you should need is longer pull rods. It might be helpful to post a few photos of the underside.

Bob Carlucci · Post by **Bob Carlucci** » 29 Jun 2020 9:35 am

Many many MSA S10 guitars were shipped from the factory with 5 pedals standard... Those extra pedals can be used for any other changes that you might like. Once you get used to the 3 "standard" pedals, you will find a lot of use for the other 2.. I know I sure did.

Bobby D. Jones · Post by **Bobby D. Jones** » 29 Jun 2020 8:37 pm

I have a MSA Classic SN 1C2921, Born July 9th 1974. I bought it used in about 1999.
It had 4 pedals when I bought it. It is set up Day System with C pedal in the 3rd or 4 pedal slot from the Left end of the pedal bar.
It is a very comfortable steel to play. If you move the pedals you will may have to move the Left Knee levers to make the guitar comfortable to play.

(Sorry I have the guitar, But it is hard to get to it where it is stored at the Moment.)

Michael Hardee · Post by **Michael Hardee** » 30 Jun 2020 10:39 am

The only reason to move the floor pedals is if you can't use the left knee levers comfortably with the current position of the ABC floor pedals. I owned a 1974 MSA Classic that came stock with 5 floor pedals and four knee levers. Unfortunately the two left knee levers were located too far to the right for me to use comfortably with the ABC floor pedals as the guitar came set up. My left ankle was not very flexible.

Since the knee levers were fixed all I had to do was take the back plate off and shift the floor pedals one space to the right. To make the job clean I shortened the pull rods at the same time and took the extra two floor pedals off. As memory serves my guitar ... which came new from the factory for $950 ... had brackets on the pedal bar for ten pedals and the underside was also ready for a full ten floor pedals.

The steel was indeed built like a tank, played very smooth and I bet is still serving some one well today. Those steels were built so well I doubt it is possible to wear one out.

Steven Golding · Post by **Steven Golding** » 30 Jun 2020 4:59 pm

thanks you for replying so quickly guys. Today I went over to the studio space and took another look at the guitar and to take pictures. I think removing and replacing the rods wouldnt be a big deal, I disconnected the A pedal rod and placed it back just to see. On second thoughts however I think it would be best for me to just keep the pedals and levers where they are and get use to playing that way.
In the begining it seemed pretty awkward at first. I adjusted the way I was sitting today and it made the playing seem more fluid.
Thanks for all the responces.
S

George Geisser · Post by **George Geisser** » 1 Jul 2020 2:03 pm

Steve, if you post pictures of the underside you'd get all the help you need from those here on the forum. My MSA is a 12 string but lever and pedal placement are original. I think the consensus is that your first pedal be under the rollers on the headstock. Also looking where the pedals and knees are on Steel Guitar images is useful. Tis wise however to not fix if'n it ain't broke

Bobby D. Jones · Post by **Bobby D. Jones** » 2 Jul 2020 7:51 pm

To be comfortable sitting at my MSA S10I had to sit a little right of center, Belt buckle centered around the 15/17 fret. You could move the pedals if you want. The knee levers are hard to move, 2 of the knee levers have direction changers mounted to the front apron which would hard to move. It would take drilling and tapping holes in the front apron to accomplish knee lever move.

Steven Golding · Post by **Steven Golding** » 3 Jul 2020 6:08 am

Just put a new set of string on her.
Does anyone know where i could buy a case? The one shipped to me has a huge hole in it.

Nikolai Shveitser · Post by **Nikolai Shveitser** » 3 Jul 2020 9:46 am

It looks like the pull rods have some overhang... You might not even need longer pull rods (from what i can see in the undercarriage shot).

George Geisser · Post by **George Geisser** » 3 Jul 2020 11:32 am

Steve, just a thought but it is possible that an old timer who was a C6er had that guitar step up for C6 and not E9. That would explain a lot of what's seen. A shot of the changer end with the hex adjusters would be helpful as would a picture of the whole underside. This would help Forumites to tell you what's what! Your Left Knee lever is correct. I believe that the 1st of the ABC pedals is normally directly under the roller nut. Some add a "Zero pedal" to the left of ABC (in the 2nd predrilled hole) To echo others take lots of detailed pics and note what holes in the changer and bell crank are used for every change (string). If your 1st pedal raises B's to C# and your 2nd pedal raises G#s to A (3rd string) you have an Emmons set up and disregard my C6 rant. Others will add clarity!

Mike Perlowin · Post by **Mike Perlowin** » 4 Jul 2020 8:43 am

First, congratulations on your new guitar. From the picture, we can see that it was made between 1970 and 1975.

I suggest that you take the guitar to an experienced technician (Bob Carlucci?) and have him teach you how to work on the undercarriage.

I further suggest that when you move the pedals over, you leave the first and 5th slots empty, and put the 3 major pedals in slots 2,3, and 4. At some point in the future, you may want to add a zero pedal in slot 1, and something else in slot 5.

Steven Golding · Post by **Steven Golding** » 5 Jul 2020 4:03 pm

George. i just put a fresh set of stings on her and did my best to tune her up. I only attempted to play with the adjusters that associated with ABC pedals. the pervious owner sandwiched two on top of each other in the changer and me being totally unaware i broke one turning it too much. Im not sure why they did that the rod seems to keep the string intune with just one. They should probably all get replaced. Regardless with my extremely limited experience with this type of ax i believe its an E9. Im not sure or concerned with what the other two pedals do, im trying to take it slow. If i can manage to post pictures from my phone i will soon. Thanks for your words.

Mike Thank You! Im located in upstate Ny any advice on finding a repair guy or even someone to talk to about PSG would be awesome. I personally dont know anyone who plays regularly were i live however im sure there is someone.
-S

Steven Golding · Post by **Steven Golding** » 5 Jul 2020 7:37 pm

Mike Perlowin · Post by **Mike Perlowin** » 5 Jul 2020 10:09 pm

We can tell from the picture of the end plate that you have an E9 tuning, which is not surprising.

You might contact Dave Borissoff in Interlaken, on the finger lakes area. Dave owns Hipshot music produces. He is also is a highly accomplished pedal steel guitarist. He can probably help you set the guitar up.

I want to repeat my suggestion that when you move the pedals over, you leave the first and 5th slots empty, and put the 3 major pedals in slots 2,3, and 4. At some point in the future, you may want to add a zero pedal in slot 1, and something else in slot 5.

John Goux · Post by **John Goux** » 7 Jul 2020 9:26 pm

Steve my first steel was a 1974 MSA Classic and I had the pedals moved over like you. It is the most comfortable for my back issues of all my steels.
However, there is a downside. Moving the ABC pedals away from the legs really increases the cabinet drop. This is true on almost all pedal steels. (Except push pulls)

If you are not yet aware, this is when adjacent strings go flat when you mash your A/B pedal combinations. Makes playing in tune a moving target. (The more cabinet drop, the more challenging to play chords in tune) My little MSA is real challenged there.

Good luck with your project. I still love my MSA but it rarely gets out of the case.
John

Johnie King · Post by **Johnie King** » 8 Jul 2020 5:24 pm

Left knee Left first available hole after c pedal.
Works very well if your knees Need tilting just lose the
Allen screw an set an tighten.

Bob Carlucci · Post by **Bob Carlucci** » 9 Jul 2020 12:22 pm

Steve, I am in upstate NY and have 43 + years experience playing and working on MSA Classic steels... I can help you with any problem you might have to deal with on the old MSA guitars.. They are simplicity itself, and are very stout, accurate and reliable pull systems.
As you are aware, upstate NY is a huge area, and we could easily be 5-6 hours away from one another...

Let me know where you are located,, If its driving distance, I can have your guitar up and running, and you can watch and learn if you'd like... I am retired, don't need money, and any work needed would cost very little, and if its just a few tweaks here and there, I wouldn't ask for a cent... I can show you how to get the most out of your guitar mechanically as well as tone wise..
The MSA pickups are pretty good, but there are much better ones out there depending on the sound you want. We can discuss the sound you like, and I will let you know the best way to get it.
Also, we can have the 4th and 5th pedals with new changes that you can use up and running in 1/2 hour.. I would be happy to recommend some changes I have put on these guitars in the past... get in touch via PM if you need any help. If its too far of a drive here, I can always help out via PM or over the phone.... bob

Steven Golding · Post by **Steven Golding** » 9 Jul 2020 2:52 pm

Bob I sent you a private message. Johnie that MSA looks awesome i wish i had the top for my wrists.

George Geisser · Post by **George Geisser** » 9 Jul 2020 4:55 pm

Steven and Bob make sure you update us when your up and running. Great community here at SGF

Johnie King · Post by **Johnie King** » 9 Jul 2020 5:15 pm

WOW BOB THATS A COOL OFFER THATS HOW GOOD FRIEND SHIPS ARE BORN!

Looks nice under the hood!
Wow these old MSAâ€™S ARE SUPERB!

Chris Brooks · Post by **Chris Brooks** » 10 Jul 2020 8:28 am

Steven, Mike P is giving some good advice. Trot 'er up to Bob Carlucci.

Fixing up a steel when you don't really play yet is a sure route to madness.

You want to play the axe, not wrench on it for months and develop an ulcer. Your time and money getting Bob to get it to fit you will be an investment--not an "expense."

And you'll make a friend!

We have all been where you are. I bought my Emmons out of Manny's window in '71. It had 6 pedals . . . an NO knee levers. Fortunately I was able to take it back to North Carolina and finally get it where I had, meanwhile, learned what I wanted!

BTW, I have had 2 MSAs and a Carter--younger brother of an MSA. They are indeed solid as a rock.

Stay in touch with us. Chris

Larry Bressington · Post by **Larry Bressington** » 10 Jul 2020 6:55 pm

Great guitars, love the black single 10, you will never need another once you get this one dialed in with the pedals, these guitars are sweet!
If you go with a plastic case, these are not any heavier than any other guitar despite of what you hear, split cases with wheels help as well as alloy legs.

Mike Perlowin · Post by **Mike Perlowin** » 11 Jul 2020 12:40 am

Larry Bressington wrote:Great guitars, ... you will never need another once you get this one dialed in with the pedals, these guitars are sweet!

I agree. That MSA will last you for the rest of your life.

The Steel Guitar Forum

Relocating pedals on a MSA Classic

Relocating pedals on a MSA Classic

Relocating pedals on a MSA Classic.