Why ? Why? Why? Why?

Richard Gonzales · Post by **Richard Gonzales** » 13 May 2006 3:44 am

What are steel players searching for with so many different tunings and copedents????
I guess it is their search for ease of playing and that sound they like.

It sure is difficult to decide what the perfect setup is unless you have years of playing experience and I bet some players are still searching for utopia.

What if you could tune a piano anyway you like, then you would have to take your own piano to perform?

What are some thoughts on the subject???[This message was edited by Richard Gonzales on 13 May 2006 at 05:02 AM.]

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 13 May 2006 5:48 am

All my guitars are U-12 E9/B6. I have six pedals and six knee levers that I MUST have to play. That's what's on my push-pull. My Sho-Bud has one more pedal and my Fessy has two more pedals and two more levers than the Emmons.

As long as I have that core functionality which, for me, is 6 and 6, I can play most anything. When I play either of the other guitars with the extra changes, I use them. I put them on there for a reason but don't really require those changes to play.

I think most folks could strip away some of what they have on their guitar and still get by but pedals and levers are there to give us a few more options.

That's my take on it anyway.

I have seen players -- usually less experienced ones -- who think that if they put the Paul Franklin pedal and knee changes they'll immediately play like Paul. YEAH, RIGHT!

I've also seen Paul (and Buddy and many others) sit down with a six string C6 lap steel and tear it to pieces. It ain't the MEAT, it's the MOTION.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
My CD's: 'I've Got Friends in COLD Places' - 'Pedal Steel Guitar'
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1984 Sho-Bud S/D-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 13 May 2006 6:20 am

For some of us less experienced players, the PSG looks like an instrument capable of many different setups. For instance, my next guitar will have a G#->F# lower on P1, a regular B pedal on P2, and B->C# raises on P3, with E->F# on LKR. It's just how I hear it.

Larry wouldn't enjoy playing it. Others would caution me about messing with the core of E9.

Professionals are one thing; experimenters are another.

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 13 May 2006 6:41 am

because we can't figure out how to play the one we got ?

t

Jack Stoner · Post by **Jack Stoner** » 13 May 2006 7:00 am

Some are experimenters and some are not. If it weren't for the experimenters we may not have the "common" tunings and setups we have today.

Personally, I'm not one of the experimenters when it comes to my pedal setup. Except for changing the E9th 1st string from a half tone to full tone raise and adding the 2nd string half tone raise, my Franklin has the original pedal/knee lever setup, as it was delivered in December 1981.

Earnest Bovine · Post by **Earnest Bovine** » 13 May 2006 7:12 am

One of the best things about steel guitar is that everybody does it differently.

Lee Baucum · Post by **Lee Baucum** » 13 May 2006 7:14 am

One of the worst things about steel guitar is that everybody does it differently.

Robert Bayles · Post by **Robert Bayles** » 13 May 2006 7:26 am

...think that if they put the Paul Franklin pedal and knee changes they'll immediately play like Paul...

You mean that won't make me able to play like Paul??? I want my money back!!!

Bob

John McGann · Post by **John McGann** » 13 May 2006 7:28 am

Sometimes "partial chords" don't cut it.

You mean you can't get every chord in every inversion with every possible color note on any fret? Even on a T-14 with 39 x 36?

This is a musical instrument???

Because nothing exceeds like excess?[This message was edited by John McGann on 13 May 2006 at 08:31 AM.]

Richard Gonzales · Post by **Richard Gonzales** » 13 May 2006 7:35 am

I am still laughing at Tony Priors answer!!
There is probably some truth to his answer.

Fred Shannon · Post by **Fred Shannon** » 13 May 2006 9:57 am

A very controversial instrument to say the least. Some of us have worked different tunings because of handicaps. I am one of those people to which Larry Bell, Bob Lee, Sonny Curtis, and Reece Anderson can attest. All these people have helped me derive a tuning that I can continue to play with my handicap.

I also call your attention to the following quote from the Bradshaw produced magazine "Pushin' Pedals" The writings of the great Paul Graupp. The quote is from page 20 of the booklet:

Now why do I say that Steel Guitar is the most controversial instrument? Because of it's many, many variations where other instruments are not nearly as variable. A piano is a piano; a trumpet is a trumpet and that's it--but not so steel guitar. I have also heard some heated arguments about making the steel guitar a standardized instrument. It will never be--it has gone much too far for that and I'm against it, wholeheartedly. Why play it one way when there are dozens of ways and numerous directions to go--from "dobro" style in the folk music groups--to jazz--and there are some excellent JAZZ steel men.

All this from an article "The Trials of a Professional" by the one and only Jerry Byrd. Good thinking Jerry and thanks for the wisdom.
Phred

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"From Truth, Justice is Born"--Quanah Parker-1904

[This message was edited by Fred Shannon on 13 May 2006 at 10:59 AM.]

Al Marcus · Post by **Al Marcus** » 13 May 2006 12:10 pm

Fred-you and I agree on experimenting with tunings. We've sure done a lot of it. I think that is why we all got to where we are now at. Reece himself has changed a few of his pulls over the years as many others. But we finally settle down to what works for us. As Larry Bell says, thee is a core tuning that is your basic tuning. I play and E6 tuning now, just like C6 only in E bar positions that I am used to, by 60 years of playing. I have played all the other tunings at one time or another, but always go back to E6. True E9, C6 and E9/B6 had become pretty well standardized as Richard mentioned. Bb 6th going into Eb9 with a knee lever is used a lot by guys that like the 6th sound better, or B6 going into E9 with a knee lever is being used more. I can play most of my big band tunes, show tunes , etc. with basically 2 pedals and 5 knee levers. that is my basic setup for my style of playing. Sure as Larry Bell says, I have 6 pedals on my guitar and use the others occasionally, but usually play without them. Actually I have 2 pedals for the E9 and 2 pedals for the E6 and all the rest on 5 knee levers. Of couse since I quiet playing professionally I rarely play E9 now. Whatever works for you personally is best for you....al

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My Website..... www.cmedic.net/~almarcus/

Fred Shannon · Post by **Fred Shannon** » 13 May 2006 3:54 pm

I have to apologize to the Forum and to Al Marcus for omitting his name from my listed mentors in the tuning effort to keep me playing. Folks, Al Marcus is one of the most knowledgeable people on this forum when it comes to tuning applications of the steel guitar. That along with his tremendous experience and expertise make him a Legend in the Steel guitar world IMO. A great guy, devoted husband, and a generally all around friend to the instrument. Sorry Al, don't know how I missed your name in the previous post, I had it written on the notepad preparation. Can I still be your friend?

Phred

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"From Truth, Justice is Born"--Quanah Parker-1904

Roger Francis · Post by **Roger Francis** » 14 May 2006 1:21 pm

WOW, my little brain must be stuck in 1rst gear, i still hav'nt figured out all the possibilitys of the E-9 with just 5&3, but i do admire the ones that go beyond the basics, my hats off to you.

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 14 May 2006 1:59 pm

The steel guitar is a conundrum. The core of most tunings is an open chord of some kind. That means some scale notes and chromatic notes are missing. One can get any of the missing notes as singles, by moving the bar, but then you loose the chord. So we add additional strings, so we can get some of those missing notes without moving the bar. But that clutters up the simple open chord. Now you have to become very proficient with different "grips" to skip over the extra strings when you don't need them. So to avoid going to a full scale tuning (like a harp) or chromatic tuning (like a piano), we developed pedals and knee levers. But you only have one foot (assuming one is on the volume pedal), and two knees. So there are limits to which scale and chromatic notes one can have. That requires us to compromise, and just have the extra notes we think we will use the most, and to put them in a pattern that is most convenient for the most often used changes. Different compromises work better for different styles of playing and different types of music, and even for physical differences among players.

So unless we grow more feet and knees, or all play exactly the same style and type of music, there will always be diffences in personal copedants. There are several core tunings that have been developed by top pros and that have stood the test of time (E9, C6, E9/B6, Bb6/Eb9, Sacred Steel E7, etc.). We can be thankful that many top pros have been experimenters, else we would still all be playing 6-string acoustic lap steels. Yet beyond the cores, virtually all top pros have different preferences that suit their style and genres, and for many of them their choice of "beyond-the-core" preferences keeps changing throughout their career. It stands to reason then, that lesser players also need to experiment a little to go beyond the simple core tunings and discover things that work best for their own unique style and genres. This is not necessarily a sign of inexperience or lack of ability. It is simply a part of learning to play the instrument and to use it fully.

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Student of the Steel: Zum uni, Fender tube amps, squareneck and roundneck resos, tenor sax, keyboards

Gary Shepherd · Post by **Gary Shepherd** » 14 May 2006 2:55 pm

Why? More options.

There are sounds that I want to hear. I can get them with the standard pulls. But having a few extra pulls makes some of the sounds easier to get. Or sometimes, there are just more choices for getting the same sounds - in different places.

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Gary Shepherd

Carter D-10

www.16tracks.com

Richard Gonzales · Post by **Richard Gonzales** » 15 May 2006 3:59 am

David Doggett- A great explanation and easy to understand. Thanks!

Ray Minich · Post by **Ray Minich** » 15 May 2006 4:24 am

Oh, if I can just get that one new little extra added option, (pull, string, pedal, effect...) my life will be complete and I'll finally have the "secret" to being able to play this thing flawlessy and sound beautiful.

Weeks and dollars later... repeat above refrain.

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 15 May 2006 4:41 am

I agree, David.

You have made me feel greater about being a lesser player.
Eventually, most come home, having decided that whatever norms can be found might make them a better player.

The rest will continue to march to the beat of a different conumdrummer.

Al Marcus · Post by **Al Marcus** » 15 May 2006 8:44 am

Fred-No Problem here. "A good friend is a friend for life". And you are a Good Friend....al

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My Website..... www.cmedic.net/~almarcus/

Barry Blackwood · Post by **Barry Blackwood** » 15 May 2006 2:51 pm

Here's the definitive answer if I may quote a famous source. "...as we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns — the ones we don’t know we don’t know."

Donald Rumsfeld

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 15 May 2006 8:30 pm

"...as we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know.

IMO, Mr. Rumsfeld is wrong about this. Those are the things we think we know. True knowledge is often much more elusive.

I don't want to get too philosophical, but this is basically a "philosophy of how and why to set up a pedal steel guitar a certain way" type of thread. I concur largely with David D.'s view of this.

Instruments like piano and most guitars (let's not split hairs over the fact that many guitarists use alternative tunings) use fixed string interval relationships. The reason they can do this is that the fingers can execute a great many of the possible permutations in a given position by simply moving the fingers. With a steel guitar, the bar is straight, and even considering slants, which are quite limited as compared to piano or guitar fingerings, one can't concurrently sound anywhere near as many permutations of notes unless something external changes the notes. Single string stuff is somewhat different, but chords are limited. Nothing we don't know.

When I started playing pedal steel several years ago, life was simple. E9 - A+B+C+(E=>Eb), gradually work in the F-lever. Still, this is limited in terms of the full chords I can play on guitar or piano (and I'm not much of a piano player anymore). Where to go from here?

Well, there are (at least) two kinds of behavior relative to figuring new things out. One approach is to find out ways to do things from other people. The other extreme is to try to figure it out for oneself. No doubt, most people do some of both.

Myself, I lean a bit to the latter - I'll look at the "normal" ways of doing things, but also usually bang my head against the wall a bit trying out variations to see the posibilities. I figure that if I haven't done that kind of dues paying, I'm not going to appreciate and truly understand the more advanced things someone tells me. But with this preparation - if someone tells me, "Maybe you should consider this approach.", I often find I can look at it and say, "Hey, that makes sense."

Each of us brings a different point of view to any instrument, any endeavor. This is where it's important to not assume we know too much - if you really think you know how to do something the "right" way, it's much more difficult to see a "better" way, or even just a "different" way which leads to other ends. Skads of psychological experimentation shows that we tend to see what we expect to see, even when the "truth" is quite different.

Computer scientists call this "depth-first" vs. "breadth-first" searching. In depth-first searching, one makes a number of assumptions and proceeds in a more focused direction. In breadth-first searching, one makes fewer assumptions and looks at a wider field. Both techniques are useful, in different situations. Breadth-first tends to be more useful when a-priori knowledge is not as good. Depth-first is more useful when one sees the lay of the land, and can progress more quickly in a "good" search direction. These are not absolute, but there is clearly a huge variation in the possible ways to approach any task, including setting up and playing a steel guitar.

Of course, all IMO.

[This message was edited by Dave Mudgett on 15 May 2006 at 09:31 PM.]

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 16 May 2006 10:47 am

D Dog and D.M. state it well.
To each his own,
for his own needs.

Each person is playing something a bit different,
each person's musical logic is also coming
from a differing usage stand point.

No wonder there are many differeing copedents,
based around some logically found basic tunings.

There is a individual need for these variations.

Barry Blackwood · Post by **Barry Blackwood** » 16 May 2006 1:06 pm

Dave M. I concur. TRUE knowledge seems to have eluded not only Mr. Rumsfeld, but his peers as well ....