Tone Sustain Issue

Ken Metcalf · From: San Antonio Texas USA

I have been looking at Keyless and getting a kick out of the heated argument.
I came across this post by Ed Packard that seems to be based on facts.
This is a small piece of his book in a section dealing with overtones behind the nut and keyless PSG. http://www.b0b.com/infoedu/gearless.html

It says below, if you use a steel bar damping the strings with your hand the overtones are dampened to almost zero.
Head stock overtones only truly effect open strings.
I guess this would be control of overtones.
Ed Says:Below

(Sustain: If the length of the vibrating string is considered as just two parts (between the nuts, and between the left nut and the string termination point), the following visualization can be formed; If the left nut is very thin (narrow or pointed), and the open string is plucked, the string length behind the left nut will also vibrate. The amount of vibration will depend upon the length of the string behind the left nut, and the way that it is terminated. If the length of string behind the left nut is the same as the length between the nuts, the string vibration will decrease less with time, viola, we have sustain increase, ..but only with open strings or open string chimes (harmonics). When the steel is used and the left hand deadens (damps) the string behind the steel, the sustain advantage from this cause is lost. No PSG has that much string behind it's left nut. If that part of the string were half as long, the open string second harmonic would be emphasized. If it were one third as long, the open string third harmonic would be emphasized, etc.. If it were of zero length, it would have zero effect except for the damping in the termination method.)

I myself can not comment on the ugly thing because beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. BUT I can say when I am reading the silly parts of the argument on keyless I am not visualizing men setting behind PSGs.
I am visualizing them banging there spoons in a high chair. and am glad they are not gathered in a bar.

Ken Metcalf Carson Wells D-10

Charlie McDonald · From: out of the blue

Ah--so there are overtones due to sympathetic vibration as well.
(I love it when Ed talks dirty.)

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

I think it's all personal taste, and either one is fine and will do the job. But, you have to remember that about 90% of the pros still use a "keyed" steel! Keyless steels have been around for over 30 years now, they're nothing new, and if they offered some really significant advantage, don't you think a lot more pro players would be using them?

I do.

But that's just an opinion.

I hate to say it, but the type of steel you play, whatever it may be, won't make you a great player. You have to do that!

Curt Langston · Posted 10 May 2006 5:37 am

Gene Jones · From: Oklahoma City, OK USA, (deceased)

[quote}They are modern looking, and a lot of players(especially the older ones) just think they "look funny" [quote]

"I think they look funny!"

My apology...I couldn't resist!

[This message was edited by Gene Jones on 10 May 2006 at 08:51 AM.]

Ray Minich · From: Bradford, Pa. Frozen Tundra

"Decimation In Time" - perhaps a good name for the next Steel album

(beats "Fast Fourier Transforms in A Minor...")

[This message was edited by Ray Minich on 10 May 2006 at 08:44 AM.]

Farris Currie · From: Ona, Florida, USA, R.I.P.

YOU BET THEY LOOK FUNNY!!!!!

And at my age,who cares how long it takes to change a string???? hehehheheheheheehe

GENE
Glad to see you back my Friend!!!!!!
farris

David Wren · From: Placerville, California, USA

ed packard · From: Show Low AZ

How about: The next generation will be stringless...considering that the "old boys" can't remember what a G string is used for.

Charlie McDonald · From: out of the blue

I resemble that remark.

One day, those keyheads are going to look pretty antique.

Curt Langston · Posted 12 May 2006 6:24 pm

Mark Eaton · Posted 12 May 2006 6:56 pm

"And at my age,who cares how long it takes to change a string"

Yeah...but you won't go to the supermarket and buy green bananas?

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Mark

Ken Metcalf · From: San Antonio Texas USA

Know how to spot if some one is a Steel player??
If you show them a picture of a tree and they get lost in the forest.

Ken Metcalf Carson Wells D-10/ super twin

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

Keyless steel guitars have been around longer than 30 years. Magnatone had one in the 1950's, and Gene Fields' Fender design dates from the early 1960's. I dare anyone to say it didn't sustain well!

I disagree with Ed's conclusion that left hand damping negates any keyhead resonance effect. If it were true, the sympathetic strings on a sitar wouldn't work.

------------------

Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6) My Blog

ed packard · From: Show Low AZ

B0B..."negates any" are your words...I believe that I said "deadens (damps) the string behind the steel"...not quite the same thing.

jolynyk · From: Prince Albert Sask. Canada

Oh, Oh, here we go again, at least they're saying it looks funny, not UGLY... I played a gig the other night, & just for fun, I listened for overtones, etc. But with the drummer crashing his cymbal, & the lead guitar playing his so called rhythm chops, & some harmony, I'll be darned if I could hear any overtones, or undertones, or much else, so I just tuned her up, & concentrated to being on the frets, & it wouldn't have made much of a difference if it was keyed or keyless.. Now recording might have made a differance, but in a bar??

Alan Brookes · From: Brummy living in Southern California

Changing strings ? I have instruments that I haven't changed to strings on in 40 yrs. !

You mean you're supposed to change 'em ?

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

I stand corrected, sir!

Henry Nagle · From: Santa Rosa, California

I've been playing pedal steel guitar for a little less than three years. In that time I've been fortunate to own several guitars. They were/are:

1. a ZB S10 (great sounding)

2. a ShoBud D10 with the Marrs modifications (average sounding)

3. a Kline U12 (average sounding but extremely stable and compact. I became very comfortable with this guitar)

4. a '67ish Emmons, bolt on, S10 Push Pull (very good sounding. I'm just getting the hang of playing to it's tonal strengths.

5. a second S10 ZB that sounds nearly as good as the first one.

I now own the Emmons and the 2nd ZB. I have no plans to part with either of them. If I buy another guitar it will probably be keyless.

After playing all these guitars, I still really have no idea why they sound the way they do. Certainly the pickup is part of the equation, but none of the guitars I mentioned above would sound much like each other if they had identical pickups.
I have read what a lot of people think about why guitars sound the way they do. I have seen some intelligent ideas but I don't feel like anyone has really understood why guitars sound the way they do.
It's actually really neat that we have so much variety available to us. Even better that we have so little technical understanding of the most important aspect: the sound! It remains mysterious and elusive and I think that makes us appreciate our instruments so much more. So long as we are ignorant, we can pretend they are divine.

How boring would this forum be if all guitars and amplifiers sounded the same? I shudder to think. Really, I shudder when I think!

James Martin (U.K.) · From: Watford, Herts, United Kingdom * R.I.P.

What Jolnyk has said should stop this discussion from ever appearing on this page again.That's it in a nutshell.I've been out there gigging for the past 30yrs and all the niceties that are considered in your front room instantly go out the window at a noisy gig.I defy anyone to hear overtones or buzzing with all that noise going on around them. James

Jim Bob Sedgwick · From: Clinton, Missouri USA

As stated before, I have played keyless for years. The difference in tone is minimal, if any and certainly can not be heard in a noisy club. As to the looks, I agree the keyless does not look retro. Apparently not to the audience either. I had a lady tell me that I must be good friends with the band. I asked why. She said "Because they let you sit up there on the stage with them, at that "little table." Later, she asked after finding out the table was an instrument, if it mattered which of those pedal things you step on. I told her, No ma'am, it's only important if you care what it sounds like. Otherwise you could step on any of them with no problem. Don't you just love ignorance?

Pat Kelly · From: Wentworthville, New South Wales, Australia

Maybe a little more time behind the keyless or keyed instrument and a little less time theorising might be the "key" to improving the tone.

jolynyk · From: Prince Albert Sask. Canada

Quote, "Maybe a little more time behind the keyless or keyed instrument and a little less time theorising might be the "key" to improving the tone."

You're all correct.. Pat, James, & Jim Bob.. theorizing at home is one thing, .. I can sit at home, with my little meter, & measure cabinet drop all day, listen to sustain, tweak knobs for tone, listen for overtones etc. etc..
Then welcome to the real world.. I set up in the local bar, yes bar, & hook up my RV3, or delay pedal, or Profex, there go my overtones etc.. The band cranks up, & as stated before, if there is a musician or steeler in the crowd, imagine them coming up & telling me everything sounds alright, but I should correct my 1 1/2 cents cabinet drop, or my 2nd string doesn't seem to sustain as long as my 5th string, or there should be a bit more overtones.. Hello..
I just practice to try to achieve a decent if not a good tone. As Bobby Bowman states in his signature, & I quote, " If you build 'em, build 'em good, if you play 'em, play 'em good".. And yes looks are important.. Or we wouldn't have bought our respective guitars in the first place. each of us love our guitars, I for one didn't go out & say I sure want that ugly guitar, & I respect everyone's choice. And my guitar is also a tool, I try to maintain it & have it look pretty as much as I can, but I can't afford the luxury, nor the room to have a few different guitars to experiment with. Copedents, & having lots of room for changes underneath a guitar doesn't really affect me personally, I am not accomplished enough to add a pedal or lever, for a certain lick. As long as I have left in this lifetime I'll do well to learn the copedant that I have now.. Look at Lloyd's copedent, look at his enviable career with the copedent he has.
Back to practice, & more practice, to work on tone, blocking & work on some of the licks that our heros use, Like Paul's speed picking, & John Hughey going up to where he can break glass. , & Tommy,& Buddy, & Joe, etc. The only glass I break is when my wife throws something at me for bad playing lol.

James Martin (U.K.) · From: Watford, Herts, United Kingdom * R.I.P.

And another thing. I can't understand why people have to make a big deal about this guitar or that guitar. As far as I'm concerned any modern guitar you buy today will sound and play pretty much like any other guitar They are all well made look almost identical underneath and are all reliable. I would have great difficulty in a hearing test trying to identify one guitar from another, they all sound the same to me and even if I could, so what!

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