Major chord vs. relative minor chord

[George Biner]

Here's something I've pondered over:

The relative minor of G is Em. If I play an Em chord, that same chord, referred to G, is actually a G6. Similarly, if I play a G chord, that is an Em6.

The question is why the 6th? Why aren't they just the straight major-relative minor?

I think I know the answer but anybody got an opinion?

[Chris Reesor]

To clarify a little, you need to look at the four note diatonic chords.

G major: G6 spelled G,B,D,E contains the same four notes as Emi7, spelled E,G,B,D.

The first three notes of these chords are the major and minor triads, and the fourth note in each case is an extension of the triad, a sixth and a minor, or flatted, seventh.

Key of C; C6 (C,E,G,A) relative minor Ami7 (A,C,E,G)

And so on for the other 10 keys.

To find the relative minor, just count up the major scale to the sixth and you have the root of the relative minor.

Going the other way, the third of a minor chord is the root of its relative major.

Work a few common keys out, and it will get easy.
Eventually you will commit them to memory.

Hope that helps.

[Andrew Frost]

Not sure of your exact question, but perhaps this helps:

The notes of a G scale are G A B C D E F# G.

The G chord is G B D. ( Root/3/5 )
G6 chord is G B D E (R/3/5/6)

Em is the relative minor of G as you mentioned.
Its notes are E G B.
Even though it is related to G, its components derive from, and refer to the key of E.

These are the notes of E major:
E F# G# A B C# D# E

Chords are always 'spelled' in terms of their home key, their root note key. Even if they are functioning in another capacity as a substitution. This applies to relative minors too.


E min = Root/b3/5 of E scale.
Em7 = R/b3/5/b7 of E scale which is E G B D.

Both these chords fit into the key of G and as you can see G6 and Em7 consist of the same notes.

BUT: Em6 is E G B C#.
( Root/b3/5/6 of E scale )

The relative minor is generally considered go be the chord and key built from the 6th step of any Major scale.
So you are correct that Em is the relative minor of G, but the Em6 will have a C# in it,so using it as sub for G maj will yeild some extra harmonic information outside the key that may or may not be desirable.

[Tucker Jackson]

George, I highly recommend you look at a piano keyboard while thinking about this stuff. All theory makes sense when you can see it visually, laid out spacially before you.

Chris discussed it in terms of 4-note chords, but we can simplify it to 3-note chords to start.

A major chord (a triad... the simplest 3-note chord) has scale tones 1, 3, 5.

Its 'relative minor' chord drops that root note back to the 6th tone of the scale... but then does the same pattern as the major chord (i.e., hitting every other note in the scale... as in, skip a note, hit a note, skip, hit).
You end up with tones 6, 1, 3.

In the key of G, this relative minor chord starting on the 6th tone would be an Em chord.

You asked about combining these chords.

If the band is playing a G chord (scale tones 1,3 5), and you lay an Em chord on top of it (scale tones 6, 1, 3), you can see that two of the three notes you're laying down are the same as the band's (scale tones 1 and 3). The only new thing you're adding is scale tone 6. The combined total is now 1, 3, 5, 6.
That's the recipe for a 6th chord, so the combination has a G6 sound.

If that makes sense, take a look at Chris' post about 4-note chords. You'll see the major 6 chord and relative minor 7th chord have all the same 4 notes. So what chord name describes those 4 notes? It could be either, a 6th or a minor 7th; it's determined by which note you proclaim to be the root (in the theory world), or which chord feels right in the song (on stage, based on the chord progression and what the bass player is doing ).

[Fred Justice]

There are 3 "relative minors" to most any song, no matter what key its in.
Following the simple Nashville number system, or just the scale.
The 2 minor, the 3 minor, and the 6 minor

[Fred Treece]

From one Fred to another...
Replace all those letters in the G major scale with numbers 1-7.
Make your G6 chord with notes 1-3-5-6 (G-B-D-E)

Replace all the letters in the E natural minor scale with numbers 1-7.
Build your Em7 chord with notes 1-3-5-7 (E-G-B-D)

Same notes in both chords but the E is voiced in the bass for Em7, and the G is voiced in the bass for G6.

[Ian Rae]

I was very lucky to grow up with a piano in the house. I never learned to play, but I used it as a calculator so that I internalised all this stuff at an early age.

I have no idea how an adult would begin learning theory, especially without a keyboard. I think the trouble I have communicating with guitarists may be down to them not having that visual layout in their heads.

[Bengt Erlandsen]

The relative minor of G is Em. If I play an Em chord, that same chord, referred to G, is actually a G6. Similarly, if I play a G chord, that is an Em6

First.. a G chord is not an Em6. The G chord functions as an Em7.

The Em6 would have to contain a C# note (6th) in relation to the E note.


The G chord and the Em are relatives tho (overlapping eachother)

The G-chord G - - - B - - D contain the upper 3 notes of an Em7 E - - G - - - B - - D

and the Em E - - G - - - B when voiced with the E as the highest note like this
G - - - B - - - - E contain all the sound of the G6
G - - - B - - D - E (G6)

even tho the D note is not present in the Em chord

unless you choose to play an Em7 voicing w the E on top.

Em7 shown in 1st inversion G - - - B - - D - E

Em7 shown in root position E - - G - - - B - - D




It is useful to know these relathionships below

[tab]
chromatic/diatonic ruler

0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 chromatic notes or frets
1 - 2 - 3 4 - 5 - 6 - 7 1 - 2 - 3 4 - 5 - 6 - 7 1 Diatonic notes of a Major scale
1 - - - 3 - - 5 - - - 7 - - 9 - - 11 - - - 13 - - 1 Diatonic notes of a 13th chord
[/tab]

you should be able figure where to find a b2 or b3 or b7 or #11 or any other note you might need.


Observe that there is 7 different notes, that split 2 octaves into THREE major 3rd intervals and FOUR minor 3rd intervals and that those seven intervals follow a specific order.

B.Erlandsen

[Brian Hollands]

The question is why the 6th? Why aren't they just the straight major-relative minor?

While relative major and minor do refer to chords, more importantly they refer to keys.
Gmaj contains the notes G, A, B, C, D, E, and F#
Emin contains the notes E, F#, G, A, B, C, and D
Exact same set of notes. That's why the two keys are relative.

[Larry Hopkins]

Lh

[Brint Hannay]

Lots of information with varying approaches here, but maybe the original question was simpler.

When we speak of "major" and "minor" chords, without suffixes such as "seventh", "sixth", etc., they are triads--three-note chords.

While there are three minor chords (triads) in the key of G major (or any major key), only one, Em, is termed the relative minor.

The basic reason Em specifically is referred to as the "relative minor" of G major is because it shares the interval G-B, which is the defining interval of the G major chord.

[George Biner]

OK, in my OP, I misstated and I was corrected: G major is Em7 (not Em6). Thanks for the correction.

The insight I discovered is that although the major and relative minor share the same notes, these triads start on different scale degrees: the Gmaj starts on the root, but that chord used as an Em7 doesn't start on the root (E), but on the *third* (G) (so it's a 1st inversion) -- that's why it's not a straight minor.

Bengt nailed it. Thanks for all the replies and info.

[Fred Treece]

It’s the same chord performing a different function, which is most likely going to be determined in a bass line or bass note. Any time you see a M6 chord, you can play just about any inversion of its relative m7, and vice-versa. Just avoid muddying up the bass with low roots.

Your contention that a G major triad can be called Em7 because it is a first inversion of Em is not correct. G-B-D is an Em7 with no root (no E note), just as B-D-G or D-B-G would be.

Similarly, G-B-E (or any other inversion of this triad) could be a G6 with no 5th. You hear this chord (as well as the full four note M6 chord) in old Western swing music all the time, especially on non-pedal steel. Again, it is an implied G chord because of a bass line outlining a G triad.

[Franklin]

Fred the minor 7th has a b7 interval added to the basic triad

The minor 6th has a 6th interval added. Musically, they are not the same chord because those two intervals create different sounds...A band as a whole can substitute one for the other. But if the band plays a min 7th or a min 6th we must play the correct chord intervals to fit the chord type.

To the thread question...Another question

Why does "Why" matter towards applying the correct major triad to its relative minor.

Open position on C6th the 8th and 4th strings create the (A minor) triad and the relative major is C major which is located at the same position by omitting the 4th, 8th and 9th strings we see C major..Memorize this fact so you always know how to find it.

Open on E9th the A Pedal creates the C# minor triad and releasing the pedal in the same position gives the relative major which is E. Memorize this as well.

I believe its more important to go straight into application than to get off in the weeds of theory...Street theory (How to apply theory
using its simplest rules) is really all that matters.

So when a band plays a "minor triad only" we can play minor 6ths, 7ths, 9ths etc to color what we play...But if the band plays a particular extended minor chord such as 6ths, 7ths, etc we must acknowledge those same exact intervals or our playing sounds wrong.

Hope everyone stays safe!

Paul

[Fred Treece]

“The weeds of theory”. Makes me want to go back into my post and yank em out by the roots! Thanks, Paul.

[b0b]

In early steel guitar literature, the C6th tuning is often referred to as Am7. Both chords contain the same notes. The difference is context. Which note is the bass player playing - C or A? Which chord is the guitarist playing - C major or A minor?

[Al Evans]

... Which chord is the guitarist playing - C major or A minor?

Let's see, the guitar player is playing an E, an A, and a G....



--Al Evans

[Fred Treece]

... Which chord is the guitarist playing - C major or A minor?

Let's see, the guitar player is playing an E, an A, and a G....

That’s an A ambivalent (Ameh) chord. Could be C ambivalent too (Cmeh).

[b0b]

I did have second thoughts about posting anything in this thread.

[Jim Eaton]

You should have listened to yourself b0b! JE:-)>

[Fred Treece]

I did have second thoughts about posting anything in this thread.

I thought it was a good post.

The discussion is interesting to me because it seems everyone has their own way of understanding and explaining a thing, mostly saying the same thing in their own roundabout way. This was good for George, the OP, because somebody finally said it in a way that he grasped, although I thought he maybe misunderstood a tangential point which I rambled on about. Much like I’m doing here.

[Dean Gray]

Any thread that has Paul Franklin sharing his time and knowledge is a good one!

[Franklin]

I should have been more clear...I was responding to Fred Justice and the original posters question. The point of substituting one for the other was raised and I felt compelled to add some harmonic rules for substitutions. My question was a response to the original thread question.

I see music as two chords - major and minor. I follow the rules for applying those two chord triads. Harmony becomes so much simpler to understand this way...Joe Pass stated it this way and when I studied with Lenny Breau he confirmed this viewpoint. They saw harmony as 2 triads.

By seeing all chords as two chord types that we are allowed to stack intervals (Pure or Altered) on top was the game changer. I had to memorize 1 3 #5 is a major chord most often used as in place of the dom7th and known as the augmented...The minor triad with a b5 gives the diminish chord. Seeing augmented and diminished chords as major or minor options determines how and where to apply them.

Memorizing the 4 chord as subdominant and the 5 chord as dominant determines when I can alter the otherwise pure intervals I can use anywhere else...Its really that simple. Then the remaining part is listening to diverse styles of music so I develop my ears towards how all of the great composers/arrangers use chords. I always notice that the greatest arrangers of all time never stray from the most basic rules.

Once this viewpoint was adapted memorizing where tritone substitutions are applied which is basically the Five 7th chord or dom7th are used to lead to the next chord. From that knowledge I just choose the chords that either sound more modern or as in the Time Jumpers choose the ones appropriate for the style...Genres vary but the rules never change.

A single harmony lesson changed my viewpoint...Before that I was trying to separate and memorize all of these issues into multiple categories towards application...That perspective was really overwhelmingly confusing because my goal was to play free from thought so the heart can guide. Too much info analysis causes the mind, not the heart to play.

Paul

[Brooks Montgomery]

I love these threads. I'm printing this one.

[Abe Levy]

Excellent thread. Thank you.