Lever that raises strings 4 and 8 on the right-knee-right?

[John Chumbley]

I have searched on the forum for a tread concerning this specific question. In the event I have missed it, I apologize for the redundancy.

Your thoughts please: Is there any disadvantage to placing the knee lever that raises strings 4 and 8 in the right-knee-right position?

FYI: The knee lever that lowers strings 4 and 8 on my guitar currently is in the right-knee-left position. (That is where it had been placed before I bought the guitar.)

Thank you.

[Bob Carlucci]

I have had both the E changes on the right knee for well over 40 years, although my E-Eb is RKR, and E-F is RKL... Many years ago, it was a more common setup than today, and multiple thousands of MSA guitars were shipped that way from the factory,,, It was their standard set up, unless ordered differently. I have never found it to be a hindrance in any way, and there are a few others here that will say the same. Its all personal preference in my opinion.. If you ate comfortable with it as is why change it... If you don't like it for whatever reason, change it- its really that simple.. bob

[Ian Rae]

Like Bob says, it's just one of the various options and there's nothing wrong with it.

[John Chumbley]

Thank you for your responses Bob and Ian.

My thought is that it would more comfortable to move my right leg right than to rock off A pedal while holding down pedal B and the F knee lever (currently LKL). However, my concern is that by moving it to RKR, I might create an unforeseen problem by placing the knee lever that lowers strings 2 and 9 in the left-knee-left position and by placing the knee lever that raises strings 1, 2 and 7 in the left-knee-right position. (BTW: LKV lowers the fifth string.)

[Tony Prior]

while there are no rules, the thought process is when we move one change from one place to another, or left to right or right to left, what are we giving up ?

The E raise , 4+8 obviously goes with the AB peds, the same leg, foot , knee , all at the same time. We are not using TWO legs for a common movement.

This is how many think. But regardless, there are no rules.

[Tucker Jackson]

... it would more comfortable to move my right leg right than to rock off A pedal while holding down pedal B and the F knee lever (currently LKL).

As the guys said, you can move it. Are your first three pedals A-B-C? Or do you have a zero pedal in the far left position?

If you have the typical pedal setup, I don't quite understand the logic of your situation. That E-raise change is sitting in the most common location on your guitar, and few people could comfortably do the physical move you're describing without accidentally engaging the A-pedal.

The reason folks aren't put off by that is because that's a really odd voicing. I'm not sure what it gets you. Maybe a 6b9 chord with root on the 9th string? I've played almost 20 years and never come across the need to play that chord. Maybe if I played jazz I would see it more often... But, yes, you can move it if you feel the need and it shouldn't hurt anything.

[Chris Reesor]

I think you might easily be creating a problem by moving your 2 & 9 lowers to LKR. Finessing the half stop while operating various A B C pedal combinations is not something I'd want to deal with. I suspect that is why that change seems to me the most *carved in stone" of E9 lever locations.

Disclaimer: I'm speaking as a long time E9/B6 uni player who actually has my 2 & 9 moves on LKL. St. 2 D#-D and St. 9 B-D with a solid stop. That works well.

[Jon Light]

The only thing about what you have that doesn't play nice with my personal preference is that I like to have E raises and E lowers on different knees. I use the smooth transition from one to the other a fair amount. But it's not a huge deal.
I've always been intrigued by the idea of the F lever on the right leg but I've never felt like changing my guitar over or relearning stuff.

[John Chumbley]

Concerning the pedals:
A raises 5 and 10
B raises 3 and 6
C raises 4, 5 and 8
Forth pedal lowers 5, 6 and 10

I have considered the advantage of having the levers that raise and lower strings 4 and 8 on separate legs (as is now the case). I don't know whether I would regret the revision to the current placement.

I have wondered about the difficulties presented by lowering 2 and 9 with LKL. And, I am uncertain about what I would be giving up. Thus, my motivation to post.

Thank you all!

[Fred Treece]

... it would more comfortable to move my right leg right than to rock off A pedal while holding down pedal B and the F knee lever (currently LKL).

The reason folks aren't put off by that is because that's a really odd voicing. I'm not sure what it gets you. Maybe a 6b9 chord with root on the 9th string? I've played almost 20 years and never come across the need to play that chord. Maybe if I played jazz I would see it more often... But, yes, you can move it if you feel the need and it shouldn't hurt anything.

If AB is your IV chord, rocking off A and sliding down one fret while engaging F is a rootless II9. Slide down one more fret and release B for the rootless V7. (We don’t need no stinking roots).

If A+F is your I chord, rock off A for I7, then slide down one fret while engaging B for IV9.

There are other uses for F+B, but rocking off A for those is a bit of an ankle twister with F raise on the LKL.

[Pete Bailey]

If AB is your IV chord, rocking off A and sliding down one fret while engaging F is a rootless II9. Slide down one more fret and release B for the rootless V7. (We don’t need no stinking roots).

If A+F is your I chord, rock off A for I7, then slide down one fret while engaging B for IV9.

Or in both cases stay on the same fret and engage your B lowers (vertical lever).

[Ian Rae]

Like Jon, I have the E raises and lowers on different knees (LKR and RKR) to get the smooth transition needed to drop the third in the A/F position.

This is clearly not important to everyone. Recent polls have shown that same-knee is still favourite, usually the left.

[Fred Treece]

If AB is your IV chord, rocking off A and sliding down one fret while engaging F is a rootless II9. Slide down one more fret and release B for the rootless V7. (We don’t need no stinking roots).

If A+F is your I chord, rock off A for I7, then slide down one fret while engaging B for IV9.

Or in both cases stay on the same fret and engage your B lowers (vertical lever).

If you have a B lower

[Tucker Jackson]

Thanks for the info, Fred.

I do have the B-lower lever... and can't really do the ankle-twist B+F thing. The OP doesn't seem to have the B-lower so if he wants to easily do those moves you laid out, yeah, probably a good idea to move E-raise to the other side.

[Tony Prior]

Like Jon, I have the E raises and lowers on different knees (LKR and RKR) to get the smooth transition needed to drop the third in the A/F position.

or you can move the bar like many did before there were E up and down levers !


"what do ya mean cars had no Power Steering or AUTO transmissions in the old days " ?

[John McClung]

John, that's how my steels are setup, stemming from the way a new MSA came to me in 1977.

I love it. If you split your E and F levers up onto opposite knees, you've cut in half the ways you can combo each of those with other levers. You'd never use E and F together, so with E's lower on RKL and F on LKR, the typical Sho-Bud setup, you can use that E lever only with LKL and/or LKV. And use the F lever with only the RKR. (Still, that doesn't make Paul Franklin a lousy player, does it, and that's his setup!)

Another advantage is if you go down the path of adding staggered levers on the left like I have, then you have 4, even 5 levers on the left to possibly use in combo with either Es lowered or raised. The math is simply way better, and options plentiful.

One downside to consider: if your right leg isn't very stable at holding the volume pedal steady, the frequent use of E and F on the right might hurt your volume pedal technique.

[Tony Prior]

what John said above.

[Dave Grafe]

My Pro I had two levers on the right only, lowering and raising 4+8. Played a lot of shows and recorded a bunch of tracks with that microphonic little hot rod.

That being said, the LKL/LKR is perfectly organic and suits the ABC pedal setup, while the common RKL/RKR changes when moved to tje left knee are clumsier when combined with pedal action.

[Mark McCornack]

My first guitar was a SB Pro-I with 3 pedals and 2 knee levers. When I bought it new (‘73) the RKL & RKR were Eb and F respectively. Down the road, when I added left knee levers to that guitar, I left the E raises and lowers where they were, on the right knee.

Maybe its laziness, but I never moved them. I didn’t want to have to re-learn that muscle memory, and didn’t see a compelling reason to do so. If there IS a compelling reason this should change, I’d be interested in hearing it.

[Thiel Hatt]

I have always had the E's to F's on the RKR and the E's to Eb's on the LKL ..... Also the lever that lowers the B's a half tone is commonly on the LKV but mine is on the LKR... I know, what a crazy guy, but it works for me... I have 4 floor pedals and 6 knee levers on my E9th

[Fred Treece]

My first guitar was a SB Pro-I with 3 pedals and 2 knee levers. When I bought it new (‘73) the RKL & RKR were Eb and F respectively. Down the road, when I added left knee levers to that guitar, I left the E raises and lowers where they were, on the right knee.

Maybe its laziness, but I never moved them. I didn’t want to have to re-learn that muscle memory, and didn’t see a compelling reason to do so. If there IS a compelling reason this should change, I’d be interested in hearing it.

What did you put on the left side?

It seems there is such variety in configurations for pedals and levers, the only compelling reason to have one over another is that’s what works best for you. The question of why would you have this on LKL and that on RKR can only really be answered by trying it. I’m still very much a beginner on this stuff, but I am learning that on configurations there is always a trade off, just like with tunings.

[Dave Mudgett]

You'd never use E and F together.

https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtop ... c&start=50

I definitely prefer my E and F lever on opposite knees, for the same basic reasoning Paul uses there. And since I sometimes play universal E9/Bs, I definitely prefer E=>Eb on the right knee. Those choices dictate the other basic lever changes for me.

There is no "standard" way to do this. Lever setup is very personal and depends on many factors. I had to experiment to figure out what I felt works best for me.

[Mark McCornack]

Fred,
To answer your question, my left knee is as follows

LKL - Drop strings 5 and 10 ( the B’s) a half step to Bb
LKV - Drop string 6 a whole step (G# to F#). This is the only change I have on this currently, but I may get the 1st and 2nd strings on this lever. On the other hand, the action of a single string drop in nice and easy (especially on a vertical)
LKR - Drop string 2 a whole step (with a 1/2 stop “feel”). Drop 9 a 1/2 step. I also drop 10 a whole step from B to A. I use this change a lot, though most folks leave this string alone on this lever change. Check out this little ditty I put up recently. I use this low 10 drop a bit in this piece

https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=358730

On the Right Knee, I see advantages and disadvantages Having the E raise/lower on the same knee. For me, the advantages are

1) I’m used to the change and I’m getting too old to re-learn this stuff
2) One never raises the E’s a half step while simultaneously lowering the E’s a half step.

A disadvantage is (and why one might want to use separate knees for raise and lower).
It is very difficult if not impossible to do a smooth glissando from an Eb to an F without briefly lingering on the E natural while in transition. With two knees moving the string could be “passed off” from one knee to the next with a little practice and make a nice smooth glis.
There may be other advantages as well, but I don’t know.

[Fred Treece]

Thanks for that explanation, Mark. I have E- on the RKL and E+ on LKL. While simultaneous use of both levers is not logical, you are right - the immediate change from + to - is much smoother when they are on different knees, almost like having an A pedal for major 3rds to 2nds in the A+F grips.

That is some fine playing on Polkadots And Moonbeams. I bookmarked the page and your excellent tutorial on the tune is going to be my next practice project.