Instuments "disappearing" in recordings

Jack Stanton · Post by **Jack Stanton** » 1 May 2020 9:59 am

Godfrey,
What's your opinion on this?
https://www.whathifi.com/art/usb-phono-plus/review
Not that I'm cheap (well maybe a little), but I've lost a lot of my discretionary money since all the gigs shut down...

Godfrey Arthur · Post by **Godfrey Arthur** » 1 May 2020 10:58 am

Jack Stanton wrote:Godfrey,
What's your opinion on this?
https://www.whathifi.com/art/usb-phono-plus/review
Not that I'm cheap (well maybe a little), but I've lost a lot of my discretionary money since all the gigs shut down...

I hear you. I lost two shows for Alanis Morisette and she lost her whole year's worth of gigs, lots of sold out shows in her line up (guess her angst is of the times..again). Many producers had to refund tickets and I'll bet the advance she got was spent way before the show dates never imagining this plannedemic would hit as it has. $:?$

Jack, if I'm not mistaken, the Rega is cheaper than the Art however featured the Art is, the review is the Art lacks punch. The Art would look good mounted to the handle bars on my bike (If I had a bike)

After you convert your vinyl the acid test is what you'll be listening to for a long while and not your vinyl as much. And your trusty converter will be sitting alongside the album stack in the waiting for you to find time to convert your entire collection: One disc at a time...

That and the Brits have always had the best ears when it comes to designing recording gear and recordings for that matter. Let's all "bend the knee" to Rupert Neve.

Unless one is able to A-B these two, I would go with Rega. These days, shipping may just disappear. Just saying. Australia just slid in a "force majeure" ban move on packages coming from Conus going to them Aussies.

I also hear the peach state Georgia did or is doing similar even if it's supposed to be "lifting."

Let's not take for granted that shipping is going to be there come hail sleet or snow.

So there are a number of things to weigh at this point in time.

Jack Stanton · Post by **Jack Stanton** » 1 May 2020 4:12 pm

Radar detector for your bike, funny...Actually the ART s 2/3'rds the price, but, hey, can't take it with you...so what if I'm eating little Friskies when I'm 85....

b0b, still haven't tried your invert suggestion. Going to give it a shot on the Roger Miller album tonight. It'll be a good reference..

Godfrey Arthur · Post by **Godfrey Arthur** » 1 May 2020 4:24 pm

Jack Stanton wrote:
b0b, still haven't tried your invert suggestion. Going to give it a shot on the Roger Miller album tonight. It'll be a good reference..

Before you do any inversion you might want to check off your albums which side instruments are panned. Example, where is the psg in the mix? Right? Left? Center? Somewhere in between? This way if you invert in Audacity you would have a better chance of knowing if the inversion left every instrument in its original pan position or is everything backwards after hitting the invert button?

admin · Post by **b0b** » 1 May 2020 4:24 pm

I guess the best thing would be to have your sound system permanently integrated with your home computer. That way, any time you want to listen to vinyl, you could do a few mouse clicks and capture it. Eventually, you'll have everything you really like digitized.

Unfortunately, mine are in separate rooms. $:\$

Another thing - have you tried just using a different pair of RCA cables? The problem could be that simple.

Jack Stanton · Post by **Jack Stanton** » 1 May 2020 4:33 pm

What!!?? You mean the 30 year old .99 cables from Radio shack could be the problem?

Godfrey Arthur · Post by **Godfrey Arthur** » 1 May 2020 4:59 pm

Jack Stanton wrote:What!!?? You mean the 30 year old .99 cables from Radio shack could be the problem?

Only if they are loose and intermittent. I once did a show with Tony MacAlpine. His connector of choice was a cheap Ratshack pair of RCA cables to go from his Yamaha preamp to the input on a Marshall. A good pair was made for him but he declined. He wanted his Ratshack cables as that was his sound.

Yes you could swap cables and see if things clear up.

You mention you're in the swamps of Joyzee.

Could your cables be oxidized? Parts is parts.

Jack Stanton · Post by **Jack Stanton** » 1 May 2020 5:29 pm

What!!?? You mean the 30 year old .99 cables from Radio shack could be the problem?

Jack Stanton · Post by **Jack Stanton** » 1 May 2020 5:33 pm

Godfrey,
Nah, I'm actually way closer to the pines than the swamps. My attempt to be clever- you know, Bruce Springsteen...? Not that I'm ever particularly clever....

Jack Stanton · Post by **Jack Stanton** » 2 May 2020 5:25 am

Ok, stupid obvious question time- I have a Behringer 4 channel interface...can I/ should I be using that?

admin · Post by **b0b** » 2 May 2020 7:37 am

You need to have the RIAA curve somewhere in the chain if you're recording vinyl.

Jack Stanton · Post by **Jack Stanton** » 2 May 2020 7:53 am

Thanks, b0b. I told you it was a stupid question. Excuse me now while I google RIAA...
"Dammit, Jim! I'm a simple country doctor, not an audio engineer!"

admin · Post by **b0b** » 2 May 2020 8:44 am

Seems to me that a USB turntable might be a better solution than buying another audio interface.

Jack Stanton · Post by **Jack Stanton** » 2 May 2020 9:57 am

As usual, you may be onto something there, as usual there, b0b. I'm going to peruse the Internet to see what's out there.
Thinking more about it, I don't believe it's the cable because it's not the entire channel -it's not quieter, only certain instruments fade Like on that Roger Miller problem the stuff that's band center to both channels, bass, drums, vocals were all there loud and strong. It's just certain instruments that are panned left or right

Godfrey Arthur · Post by **Godfrey Arthur** » 3 May 2020 8:41 am

Jack Stanton wrote:Ok, stupid obvious question time- I have a Behringer 4 channel interface...can I/ should I be using that?

Sometimes the new posts don't show up as alerts.

If you have one with separate channels and gain control you can try to balance the left and right.

The only other issue is if the SOUNDSTAGE will be reproduced faithfully.

When converting analog to digital it's all about the converter. Then grooves on a vinyl disc are so prehistoric compared to converting magnetic tape that the ability for the converter to recognize the vibrations off the grooves gets tricky.

Consider that issues such as turntable rumble will be transferred into the converter as "sound" so what does the converter know if the rumble of the moving platter is bass frequencies in the music rather than noise from a device with a motor and a spinning disc sitting on a large surface that itself may be transferring ambient noises and vibrations to the cartridge.

Remedies like these steel cone feet transfer the turntable rumble to the surface the turntable is sitting on.
So there is a myriad of issues when dealing with turntables.

Getting another turntable will have its issues. Wow and flutter? Is your AC allowing the turntable to play at exactly 33 1/3 rpms so the recordings don't sound like the Chipmunks at the mall with Lurch? Cartridge quality? The preamp/converter in those. Then what do you do with your present turntable?

Back to square one. The more things change the more they remain the same.

A good preamp interface is for people who are satisfied with their turntables.

And as we know turntables can get up there in quality vs. price.

At 5 Benjamins for this it's considered "budget" direct-drive to USB table. Some will report the included cartridge is junk so it's always YMMV. With electronics you never get all the bells and whistles. It's just the way it is. Still has to go through an ADA converter and what will that be? The weak link in the chain?

Jack Stanton · Post by **Jack Stanton** » 4 May 2020 10:07 am

The first light b0b's idea of the turntable seemed great, path of least resistance. But then I remembered I have a ton of real to reel's and cassettes that need to get done as well so I ended up ordering the Rega. Well I'm waiting for delivery I'll be going back through what I've already recorded to see which tracks need to be redone. Thanks to all for the advice and education!

Stephen Cutler · Post by **Stephen Cutler** » 7 May 2020 1:01 pm

There is another way. YouTube probably has your stuff already digitized. Play from one computer line out to second computer line in. I use Wavosaur (free) to record on 2nd computer & also to convert to Mp3. Wavosaur is a fantastic program. If you get a pause (blip) in YouTube play (busy internet)- you can blow up the ocillscope and cut the silence out restoring the recording.

David Mitchell · Post by **David Mitchell** » 29 May 2020 10:29 pm

I've wired many large studios including mic, headphone lines, effect racks, patchbays and monitors. It's easy to wire up balanced cables out of phase but a trained ear should be able to tell something is out of phase. Most obvious sign is the bass drops in volume and loses its punch. You can even have a reverb unit out of phase that causes those ghosting problems downstream.
I can't believe Capital's studio engineers let that go unnoticed but who knows maybe they did. A large number of recording devices can be wired out of phase and not just mics out of phase.

Godfrey Arthur · Post by **Godfrey Arthur** » 29 May 2020 10:55 pm

David Mitchell wrote:A large number of recording devices can be wired out of phase and not just mics out of phase.

The OP is dealing with the poor sonics of a turntable to USB converter. The model in question is notorious for having so-so transfer quality and is best suited for speech files, not stereo music.

Hence the OP's complaint of "missing instruments."

He's ordered a better converter for his project of converting vinyl and reel2reel songs to digital.

David Mitchell · Post by **David Mitchell** » 29 May 2020 11:22 pm

Godfrey Arthur wrote:
David Mitchell wrote:A large number of recording devices can be wired out of phase and not just mics out of phase.
The OP is dealing with the poor sonics of a turntable to USB converter. The model in question is notorious for having so-so transfer quality and is best suited for speech files, not stereo music.

Hence the OP's complaint of "missing instruments."

He's ordered a better converter for his project of converting vinyl and reel2reel songs to digital.

I fully understand and that's usually the problem with home equipment. All I am saying is it is possible for engineers that suppose to know what they are doing to have that malfunction because they are not dealing with factory wired Jack's they are all stripped wires that are soldered in place.

Godfrey Arthur · Post by **Godfrey Arthur** » 29 May 2020 11:28 pm

David Mitchell wrote:[

I fully understand and that's usually the problem with home equipment. All I am saying is it is possible for engineers that suppose to know what they are doing to have that malfunction because they are not dealing with factory wired Jack's they are all stripped wires that are soldered in place.

And I understand what you're saying as well.

Working with concert production it's not unusual for a tech to double check to see if a DI from a reputable maker is wired in phase before they do the show.

Sometimes wires get crossed at the factory.

David Mitchell · Post by **David Mitchell** » 29 May 2020 11:37 pm

That's right. I always tell new studio owners there is no right or wrong way to wire things. It only becomes wrong when one set of wires don't match all the others.

David Mitchell · Post by **David Mitchell** » 29 May 2020 11:59 pm

American console companies wire their consoles up with pin 2 hot and British companies wire theirs with pin 3 hot. That got me wiring up 16 jack's all wrong on my own mixer because I removed an MCI to put a Soundtracs board in it's place. It finally occurred to me I no longer had the MCI. Force of habit I guess. For a guy that does it all the time it gets a bit confusing especially when there is a random selection of companies from all over the world involved.

Godfrey Arthur · Post by **Godfrey Arthur** » 30 May 2020 12:41 am

David Mitchell wrote:American console companies wire their consoles up with pin 2 hot and British companies wire theirs with pin 3 hot. That got me wiring up 16 jack's all wrong on my own mixer because I removed an MCI to put a Soundtracs board in it's place. It finally occurred to me I no longer had the MCI. Force of habit I guess. For a guy that does it all the time it gets a bit confusing especially when there is a random selection of companies from all over the world involved.

Yes it can get daunting. Specially when there are more than one "standard."

Post by **b0b** » 30 May 2020 7:24 am

Multiple binary choices can drive one mad. I know.