Two Different F Notes on E9 Tuning

Scott Swartz · From: St. Louis, MO

I have been thinking about a way to get two different F notes on E9. Most people tune the F note flat enough to be in tune with the C# root chord 3 frets up from the no pedal position, but this makes the F note flat when used for a diminished or dom7 chord (F lever only 3 frets up).

Using a normal compensator actuated by the A pedal as is commonly done for the F#s will not work since it would change the tuning of the Es whenever you press the A pedal only or various other combinations.

I cannot see a way to use third rod to do this, as is done for a split, maybe I am missing it.

What is really needed is a conditional change of the F note tuning, making it lower when the A pedal is actuated WITH the F lever. Sort of like an if then statement with an AND (if A pedal is actuated AND F lever is actuated THEN a different F note).

The normal F note tuner would be tuned to the higher desired pitch, and then some mechanism would actuate a lowering pull on the E strings IF the A pedal is pressed at the same time the F lever is.

How to accomplish this mechanically?

There are probably various ways to do this, but a ZB style swivel used a different way looks like it just might work to me per attached sketch. The sketch is only a rough concept, not sure how the tuning stability would work out and have to make it and fit in more rods in the undercarriage. I think it would also take one assembly per E string.

Also if going from A+F to just F for the dom7 chord the pitch center would be lower and have to move the bar back a bit, but thatâ€™s easier than what I do now which is try to slant the B string note flat when playing strings 8,5 or 5,4. I have experimented a bit with turning the tuning keys while doing the changes and it seemed to be the case that the pitch center would lower.

Anyone experimented with this sort of thing or have thoughts on whether it would work?

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Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

I can't speak for others, but none of my guitars have compensators, and I do not notice a significant problem with the tuning of the "F" lever. I will admit that I tune by ear, and do not use a strobe tuner or meter. Some bar manipulation may be necessary to make things sound acceptable, but that's just the nature of the beast.

Fred Treece · From: California, USA

My understanding is that the cabinet drop with AF engaged is greater than with F only, so that F note is slightly sharpened when the A pedal is released. The two F’s already are different.

Also, when engaging only F, the note being created on the E string is the b5 of the open B, and it is a b3 below the next highest string (G#). I don’t know if it is possible (or necessary) to tune the “beats” out of the F note harmonized with B and G#. Dissonance is kind of built in to the diminished chord. It is effective because it sounds harmonically unstable.

When engaging FB, there is a significant tuning issue with strings 4/3 and 8/6, but only if the Harmony is being treated as root/major 3rd. That is not how I would use that combination though, ever.

Ian Rae · From: Redditch, England

The thing to remember is that the "F lever" actually gives us an E#. This is not being pedantic, because its function is to turn the C# minor chord on the A pedal into C# major, the components of which are C#, E# and G#. If you use any kind of sweetened tuning it will be too flat to function as an F.

You can tune the beats out of a 3-note diminished chord, but not a 4-note one. In fact if you use JI the dim. chord on 5, 6 and 8 with the F lever is beatless - it just sounds dreadful because all the intervals are too large. (The one place ET scores heavily is on dim. chords because all the minor thirds are compressed equally to fit the octave.)

If I use that chord I just do a bit of a reverse slant. I'm not sure that any mechanical remedy would work as the degree of compensation will depend on the musical context.
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Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Excellent points, Fred!

John Goux · From: California, USA

One of the advantages of Meantone tunings, and even tuning closer to ET, is that various chords, other than a straight E and A major, sound more in tune. Bar position for a AF major is to the right of the fret, when the F is -24 cents flat of open strings. The diminished chord being dissonant, as Fred pointed out, most people would rather have a pitchy passing chord than a major chord.

That’s why Buddy went to (nearly) ET later on, his frustration with all those other chords and intervals.

It would be nice to have 2 different pitches for E# and F. Kudos if you can make that work.

But it’s all a moving target.
John

Earnest Bovine · From: Los Angeles CA USA

Here is a way to get those different pitches that works for me:

LKL raises E to E# (low), suitable for harmonization with G# or C# notes

RKL lowers string 7 F# to F (halfstop, which can be nudged high or low) which when nudged high harmonizes well with D or A notes, for example D minor chord or Bm7-5 chord

[edited to fix the string number]

Scott Swartz · From: St. Louis, MO

I use meantone on C6 neck with C - G being 2.5 cents flat of ET and around the circle of fifths, so I am familiar with with it, and I think it works great on C6.
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Andrew Frost · From: Toronto, Ontario

This has got me pondering the difference between the dom7 scenario and the diminished triad inside it. In the C# chord w AF, my F raise (E#) is a wide min3 away from G#, the same sound as the 3rd & 5th of most other Just triads. When A pedal comes up,for C#7, both notes rise a little but retain their relationship. The B note (flat7) also has a wide m3 relationship with G#.Both sets of m3rds are in tune, but because they're both so wide, it can get clammy sounding quite easily. But the distance between F-G# is sound, as is G#-B. The stacked m3ds diminished thing simply doesn't sit well in Just Intonation because four of them will give you a substantial comma as others have said here.
In my understanding, the trttone as its own interval in JI can be approached as a large whole tone (9/8 ratio) plus a pure 3rd (5/4) which is interesting to me because it ends up being about 10c flatter than an ET tritone and will be much more suitable in many situations than stacking beatless min3rds, but I have not explored this fully. I just assumed it was arrived at by adding a large whole tone and a third, but b5 might just sit in the overtone series at about -10c.

Your idea of having a sharper F note option on a compensator would indeed enable that narrower tritone. Perhaps lowering B strings a few cents would also achieve this.

Bo Legg · Posted 16 May 2020 8:51 pm

Speaking of tuning... At age 82 anything within 20Hz is near perfect!

Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

all of this is exactly the same on a fretted instrument. Some guitars are better than others but frets and string gauges can only be so accurate. Guitar players know this, or at least should .

The Telecaster for example, perhaps the most beloved Instrument in the world, cannot be setup perfectly, it is setup with tuning and pitch variances, close, just like horseshoes !

Modern inventions, compensated bridges , all sorts of contraptions, can only correct a few minor instances. Fret sizes, worn frets, string gauges etc, cannot be mechanically corrected, they can be "EAR" compensated.

back to the Steel, I think it was LLoyd or Maurice, maybe Jeff Newman , in small talk at the convention one time about this subject, had a brilliant response. " tilt the bar "

The brilliant MR Satire, Bobbe Seymour , once was talking to a bunch of us in his store one time , he said something like this.

When we first learn how to play, we take a perfectly tuned instrument , slant the Bar and play out of tune.

Then we learn to hold the bar strait and forget that we can slant the Bar when necessary !

Laughing

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Ian Rae · From: Redditch, England

Same with the trumpet. Beginners have to learn the muscle control to centre the notes, then later on they learn to use those same muscles to play slightly off-centre to get in tune with what else is going on.

Those out-of-tune school orchestras are just doing what they've been taught so far Smile

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Andrew Frost · From: Toronto, Ontario

Tony, this is very true. But I think the issue here that Scott is addressing pertains to a fundamental flaw in Just intonation. As beautiful as most chords will sound, one big problem is that the interval between open B and the F raise is brutally narrow. Like you say, the slanting is necessary. The B - F tritone on steel is over 30cents narrower than ET! Conversely, F-B is about 30 cents wider than Equal temperament. Which sounds even worse I think.

Thats why those E7 chords at fret 3 are always so pitchy and high maintenance.
Using the F raise and playing a tritone between strings 10 & 8 or 5 & 4 will necessitate a slight forward slant to make it sound in tune in any temperament.
But a tritone between strgs 8 & 5 using that same F raise will require a reverse compensating slant.
They're not the same interval! There's a 60 odd cent discrepancy between the two size tritones depending on which direction you're going.

Georg Sørtun · From: Mandal, Agder, Norway

Andrew Frost · From: Toronto, Ontario

Georg, those tuneable spring washers sound like a great idea, especially for the isolated F raise. I'd be interested to hear more about this or see a mechanical diagram perhaps.

Georg Sørtun · From: Mandal, Agder, Norway

Andrew, I left all the hardware in a previous home 20+ years ago, so it is gone now. I'll try to draw a few rough examples when I find time and inspiration. So many ways to do it, and it depends on the individual PSG what fits best without feeling "mushy".

The simple basic is that the regular stop is the highest pitch for a raise / lowest pitch for a lower, and then the adjustable spring-washer (or hard spring) mechanics provide the lowest pitch for a raise / highest pitch for a lower.
No inter-dependency between pedals/levers, so either of the two pitches can be reached regardless of which other pedals/levers are, or are not, activated. It is all "ear to muscles on-the-fly".

Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

Andrew Frost · From: Toronto, Ontario

Sounds like an interesting 'feel stop' solution without the addition of extra rods. This would be very useful.

Georg Sørtun · From: Mandal, Agder, Norway

Mark McCornack · From: California, USA

Some very interesting ideas here. I have my F lever pulling to slightly offset notes. String 8 raise E to F being nominal, and the string 4 pull a bit flat. The string 8 is tuned to give me a good diminished chord on 9,8,6,5. The string 4 pull is flat, as is practice in JI tuning to sweeten the third of the major triad. The grip for this is A pedal and F lever on the higher strings 3,4,5,6 (include string 10 optionally, but string 8 avoided).
It's a compromise, but most things seem to be when it comes to intonation on PSG. These grips tend to stay in their own camps, and if I HAVE to mix it up, I can fudge a little with bar slant. Strings 8 and 4 are far enough apart, it doesn't call for too much slant to bring them together. Again, not a perfect solution, but works OK. Rolling Eyes

Jim Palenscar · From: Oceanside, Calif, USA

more vibrato

Mark McCornack · From: California, USA

Dial up the Reverb, and MORE COWBELL! Mr. Green

Larry Bressington · From: Nebraska

Tune the F note UP to where its just creeping out of the sweet zone with the A pedal engaged...You could also tune your guitar tempered to 443, it averages out all the flattened (sweetened) on a more even spectrum.
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