13th flat 9 locations

Gene E. Jones · Post by **Gene E. Jones** » 19 Apr 2006 9:42 am

When I read the post on the locations of the min7 flat five locations on pedal steel it reminded me that i would like to know where one obtains the 13th flat 9 chord. The most useful for melody would be to have the 13th note itself on the top string. Thanks, gene jones

Dean Parks · Post by **Dean Parks** » 19 Apr 2006 11:11 am

Gene-

E 13 b9, with no root, top to bottom

C#
G#
F
D

Which is strings

5 (A pedal)
6
8 (raise 1/2)
9

There is no root, but this voicing "speaks for itself".

If you look at this as a 5 chord, you can transition to it from a strummed AB-down 4maj9 or 2 m9-no-root (str 9,8,7,6,5), and then go to A-only with F lever, while muting string 7.

-dean-

Earnest Bovine · Post by **Earnest Bovine** » 19 Apr 2006 12:54 pm

Those 4 notes also work as Bb7+9 with no root. As a B flat chord, the F note in the middle is not as important because it doesn't add a new color in the way that it does as an E chord.

Depending on your E9 setup, those 4 notes may be played at some other frets. For example on my E9 they are at fret 9 (super easy), fret 15 (semi-easy), and fret 10 (awkward). Each position offers different ways to bend the notes.

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 19 Apr 2006 1:08 pm

That's a rough one on standard E9th. Dean's suggestion is the only one I can come up with too.

ed packard · Post by **ed packard** » 19 Apr 2006 1:57 pm

GJ:
Nice puzzles lately.

C13b9 would be 1,3,5,b7,b9,11,13 = 4,3,3,3,4,4 in halftone steps.
34 is a minor, 33 is a dim, 43 is a major, and 44 is a #5.
C13b9 sans root = Em611b5b9 = 33344.
C13b9 sans root and 3rd = Gm9b5M7 = 3344.
C13b9 sans root, 3rd, and 5th = BbmM7 = 344.
C13b9 sans root, 3rd, 5th, and b7 = Db#5 = 44.

Now the question boils down to…can we find any of the above chord TYPES in the tuning of choice...the more intervals in sequence the better.

In E9…ala older Emmons setup:
C13b9…no.
Em611b5b9…no
Gm9b5M7…close, but no cigars.
BbmM7…yes…P1P2L^L>, starting on string 7, @ fret 4.
Db#5…yes…P1P2R>+ finger pull on string 4, starting on string 6 @ fret 5.

The rest are skip string and drop interval situations. I did not look at slants.

Caveat emptor! Somebody check these.

Randy Beavers · Post by **Randy Beavers** » 19 Apr 2006 3:00 pm

Dean's example is right on. If you play those strings, (9, 8, 6, and 5) on the 3rd fret with the A pedal and F lever for a G7b9, notice that strings 8, 6 and 5 are an E major triad. This is useful information when soloing over this chord. You can think E major against this chord change when building a solo.

The b9 chord also works like a diminished in that you can go up or down a minor 3rd and play the same pattern against it. So now instead of just thinking E or a G major triad you can also use A# and C# triads against the G7b9 chord.

Oh what a tangled web.

Gene E. Jones · Post by **Gene E. Jones** » 19 Apr 2006 6:02 pm

thanks Dean. This voicing of the 13flat 9 chord is just what i was looking for. gene jones

Bengt Erlandsen · Post by **Bengt Erlandsen** » 20 Apr 2006 1:15 am

Strings 6 5 - - 2 1# (raise 1st string F# to G)
would give the notes b7 b9 11 & 13
(The Apedal has control of the b9 note)

Bengt

Charlie Moore · Post by **Charlie Moore** » 20 Apr 2006 3:53 am

I'm like Jimmy Day used to say,"i don't know what it is but it sounds good"..
Charlie...

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 20 Apr 2006 6:31 am

Is the 11 really part of the chord? It doesn't sound right in a regular 13th, and most people agree that 3-b7-9-13 is the essence of the 13th sound.<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Bobby Lee on 20 April 2006 at 07:32 AM.]</p></FONT>

ed packard · Post by **ed packard** » 20 Apr 2006 7:33 am

The 11th IS part of the chord per convention/system of constructing and naming chords...this does not mean that it will sound good in all cases...depends where it is coming from, and where it is going.

Convention in pop music is to leave out the 11th in the 13th chords. It is also common to raise the 3rd an octave and include it on keyboard.

An 11th chord is usually played with the 3rd missing.

One way to get a feel for Complex/compound/stacked/etc chords as could be used on the PSG (where most picking consists of three or maybe four notes), is to use the Jazz chords for standard guitar...these are also limited in the number and choice of notes/intervals to represent the total chord.