Input on my Copedant?? Thanks.

Brian Lethert · Post by **Brian Lethert** » 1 Mar 2006 1:48 pm

I'm only going to post the knee levers. Pedals are standard A/B/C, P4 is 5&6 up 1 full tone, P5 is the 'Franklin' pedal.

Set up for extended E9.

LKL - F Lever
Vert - 1st F#-G#, 6th G#-G
LKR - 2nd D-C#, 6th G#-B, 9th D-C#

RKL - E-Eb Lever
RKR - 2nd Eb-E, 6th G#-F#

Buck Dilly · Post by **Buck Dilly** » 1 Mar 2006 2:40 pm

It seems important E's to F and your E's to Eb on the same leg since they won't ever be used in a combination, but may be useful in combination with other knee changes. [This message was edited by Buck Dilly on 01 March 2006 at 02:42 PM.]

Gary Shepherd · Post by **Gary Shepherd** » 1 Mar 2006 2:42 pm

No B to Bb anywhere? I find that one very useful.

Not sure why you want to go G# to G and G# to F#. Maybe a half stop on just he right knee would open up a spot on the vertical lever for something else.

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Gary Shepherd

Carter D-10

www.16tracks.com

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 1 Mar 2006 3:13 pm

I know it is very common to have both the E raises and lowers on the same knee, because of Buck's reasoning, but there are also good reasons to keep them on separate knees as you have them. I tried them both on the left knee, but I could not transition smoothly from the Im with the Es lowered and the V chord two frets up with the A-pedal/F-lever combination. This is a very common progression in minor keys. Paul Franklin once said on here that he has his on separate knees for "smoother playing," although he wasn't specific about what chords he was referring to.

I also don't have the Bb change on string 5. I'd be interested in what people use that for that I might be missing out on.

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Student of the Steel: Zum uni, Fender tube amps, squareneck and roundneck resos, tenor sax, keyboards

Gary Shepherd · Post by **Gary Shepherd** » 1 Mar 2006 3:34 pm

Having the E strings levers on different knees hasn't been a problem for me. F = LKL and D = RKL.

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Gary Shepherd

Carter D-10

www.16tracks.com

Brian Lethert · Post by **Brian Lethert** » 1 Mar 2006 3:52 pm

I'm trying to avoid half-stops. If I must, I must, but I don't like the soft feel.

Post by **b0b** » 1 Mar 2006 4:57 pm

It seems important E's to F and your E's to Eb on the same leg since they won't ever be used in a combination, but may be useful in combination with other knee changes.

I use them together all the time. I release one as I engage the other, for a smooth full-step change.

John Bechtel · Post by **John Bechtel** » 1 Mar 2006 9:37 pm

David;
When you Lower #5 & #10 ½-tone along with (A)-(B)-Pedals it will give you an A Maj. to Am. (3,4,[5],6,8,[10])

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“Big John”
a.k.a. {Keoni Nui}
’05 D–10 Derby
’65 Re-Issue Fender Twin–Reverb Custom™ 15”
Current Equipment

Klaus Caprani · Post by **Klaus Caprani** » 1 Mar 2006 10:42 pm

I have them on seperate knees as well (F on LKL and Eb on RKL).
Theoretic'ly I'm missing out on some changes, but I think that this has been standart for years in the past.
I like the smooth transition as well, which I think that I would loose by having them on the same knee.

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Klaus Caprani

MCI RangeXpander S-10 3x4
www.klauscaprani.com

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 1 Mar 2006 11:06 pm

Thanks, John, now I see how the Bb lever works. With the A and B pedals down, it flats the 3rd to give a minor. But I already have three other ways to get a minor (A pedal, B and C pedals, E lower lever). Does one really need another minor? When my A and B pedals are down, I'm usually on a IV, V or I chord; but I would hardly ever need a IVm, Vm or Im. Do people really use this lever for a minor a lot? The reason I ask is that I have 5 levers, and four of them I consider essential and untouchable. So I really have only one lever to experiment with. Somehow I have never seen the point of using it for that 5th string half-step lower. But probably the majority of E9ers have that change. Are there some special licks with it that I am missing?

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 2 Mar 2006 5:52 am

David,
What you say is true but there's something to be said about having a direct MA --> mi move on the same fret. Pedals up it's G# to G; pedals down it's B to Bb/A# which, in combination, is C# to C giving the Am triad on all the E9 major triad grips. I guess that's why my Fessy has eight levers all on one neck. My other guitars are not so 'well hung', so the G# to G is the first to go for me, but I do like the split on the A pedal with the Bb lever. I don't have the split on my push-pull, but it has longer throw and half pedals more easily. ---- Obviously, the other way to get the Am is to half-pedal the A pedal, but, on many guitars, the split is tunable and is easier to play than a half-pedal.

Another common usage for that split is without the B pedal, where it gives you Eaug (or, with a D in there somewhere, Eaug7). I use both very often.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1984 Sho-Bud S/D-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 02 March 2006 at 05:56 AM.]

Jeff Colson · Post by **Jeff Colson** » 2 Mar 2006 6:22 am

I like the lower the b's for swingy stuff like say at the 10th fret 4,5,6 is D while they ring slide back to the 8th fret while engaging the lever to lower the b's then play 5,6,8 whith the b's lowered then release the lever that lower's the b's and engage the lever that lower's the e's at the 7th fret pick 8,7,6,5 while sliding to the the 8th fret to resolve to G

Brian Lethert · Post by **Brian Lethert** » 2 Mar 2006 7:11 am

Other thought:

How necessary is the first string whole tone raise?

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 2 Mar 2006 8:22 am

I definitely love the B to Bb lower.
How about fret 2 AB + Bb minor
release Bb while sliding to fret 3 for the IV

Also I use it ( with compensator rod)
for flat 5th no pedals with a G# to G lower
When going no pedals from IV to #IVmb5 to V

The B-Bb and E-Eb are cousins in many ways.

I firmly believe in having 3 minors and b fifths available
in both standard positions for a comlete cycle.
[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 02 March 2006 at 08:26 AM.]

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 2 Mar 2006 8:40 am

Brian,

I don't have the 1st string whole-tone raise, and don't feel the need for it. It's used a lot in "modern" top 40 country music, which I rarely play.

I do feel that the first string raise to G is important and useful, though. You can get the G# from there with an easy bar slant if you really need it.

I would never raise the middle G# to B. That's the one thing in your copedent that bothers me.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b2005.gif" width="78 height="78">Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6) My Blog

Brian Lethert · Post by **Brian Lethert** » 2 Mar 2006 11:44 am

Upon further reflection on the great input here, I'm thinking this way now:

LKL - "F" Lever
LKV - 2nd Eb-D, 6th G#-G
LKR - 2nd Eb-C#, 9th D-C#

P1 - "A" Pedal
P2 - "B" Pedal
P3 - "C" Pedal, but also raise 8 E-F#
P4 - Raise 5 & 6 a whole tone

RKL - Eb Lever
RKR - 2nd Eb-E, 5 & 6 Lower one tone "PF"

Only Question: Where does the first string 1/2 tone raise go?

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 2 Mar 2006 12:45 pm

I recommend F# to G on RKR, instead of the 2nd string raise.

Gary Shepherd · Post by **Gary Shepherd** » 2 Mar 2006 3:32 pm

Consider the following melodic use of the Bb lever, which I call the X lever as Jeff Newman did.

<pre> G | D | G | | |
|--------------------------------|--------------------------------|
|--------------------------------|--------------------------------|
|--------------------------------|--------------------------------|
|10------10------8---------------|8D------------------------------|
|10A-----10A-----8A--8---8#b-----|8-------------------------------|
|--------------------------------|--------------------------------|
|--------------------------------|--------------------------------|
|--------------------------------|--------------------------------|
|--------------------------------|--------------------------------|
|--------------------------------|--------------------------------|
</pre>

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Gary Shepherd

Carter D-10

www.16tracks.com

Gary Shepherd · Post by **Gary Shepherd** » 2 Mar 2006 3:34 pm

Consider the following melodic use of the Bb lever, which I call the X lever as Jeff Newman did.

<pre>
G | D | G | | |
|--------------------------------|--------------------------------|
|--------------------------------|--------------------------------|
|--------------------------------|--------------------------------|
|10------10------8---------------|8D------------------------------|
|10A-----10A-----8A--8---8#b-----|8-------------------------------|
|--------------------------------|--------------------------------|
|--------------------------------|--------------------------------|
|--------------------------------|--------------------------------|
|--------------------------------|--------------------------------|
|--------------------------------|--------------------------------|
</pre>

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Gary Shepherd

Carter D-10

www.16tracks.com

Gary Shepherd · Post by **Gary Shepherd** » 2 Mar 2006 3:35 pm

Sorry about the double post. I was trying to edit the tab and duplicated the post.

Anyway, I wouldn't be without the Bb lever on any of my guitars.

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Gary Shepherd

Carter D-10

www.16tracks.com

Hans Holzherr · Post by **Hans Holzherr** » 3 Mar 2006 12:27 am

David, consider the I6th chord with pedals A and B down. When you engage the B to Bb lever it will give you the IV9th chord on the same fret.

Hans

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 3 Mar 2006 8:31 am

Interesting, Hans. For that use it functions like pedal 6 on the C6 neck. Since that is the most commonly used pedal on C6, I can see how the Bb lever is very useful for playing Western swing and jazz on E9 in the A6 mode you get with the A and B pedals down.

If I had an extra lever to try, the Bb would be interesting to try. My problem is that in order to use my S12 uni as one big tuning, I Have to keep it lean. With only 5 levers, four of them seem essential and untouchable. That leaves only my RKV. I currently have it pulling the 1st and 7th strings to G and G#, to give me a dominant 7th with the A and B pedals down, or a unison with the G#. Also, in the A-pedal minor mode, it gives me a b5 or a unison 5th. At the moment these all seem more useful to me than the Bb change. But the above has given me more respect for the Bb change. I notice it also would give me a maj 7 in both the A-pedal minor mode and the B6 mode. That would be very useful. At some point I may have to consider the Jimmy Crawford/Larry Bell solution of 4 or more levers on the same knee. I'm just not sure I can twist my butt enough to use them.

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Student of the Steel: Zum uni, Fender tube amps, squareneck and roundneck resos, tenor sax, keyboards

[This message was edited by David Doggett on 03 March 2006 at 08:34 AM.]

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 3 Mar 2006 8:39 am

David, you and I are in the same boat. After 25 years of playing E9th without the X lever, I'm not willing to give up any of my existing levers to add it, nor am I willing to add another lever to my guitars.

My solution was to put it on a pedal. It's not optimal, though, and my recommendation to anyone who's learning the instrument is to lower your 5th string B to Bb on LKV. I honestly believe that it's an extremely useful change, and that LKV is the best location for it. I regret not following that advice from my mentors early on.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b2005.gif" width="78 height="78">Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6) My Blog