General PP PSG set-up and adjustments document?

William Johnson · Post by **William Johnson** » 11 Feb 2006 2:49 pm

is there a general PP PSG set-up and adjustments article, document or post floating around out there that details steps and do's & don'ts? i am referring to one that assumes you are re-roding and/or have a empty PSG body.

i am one of those people that likes to understand details of the procedure, etc. not just a cook-book approach.

i play a Derby, but in a genral sense that makes no difference if its a PP correct?

thanks,

GrievusAngel

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William Johnson (Billy)
Grievous Angel Productions
Statesboro, GA. 30461 USA
http://www.grievousangelpro.com

Derby DB10 E9
Custom BillieTele Telecaster
Peavey NV400
Peavey TubeFex
Goodrich 7A

Please 'Mouse' to see larger photo.

http://usera.imagecave.com/GreivousAngelPro/derbyfront.JPG

Summer 1969

http://usera.imagecave.com/GreivousAngelPro/Billy1969.JPG

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 11 Feb 2006 3:22 pm

It makes a BIG DIFFERENCE
A push-pull guitar is a very different design from an all-pull. Your Derby is an all pull changer. Each pull has its own pull rod, unlike a push-pull.

In any case, what you are looking for is summarized very well by the folks at Carter Steel Guitars. The site is here . You will find lots of info and even copies of some of the owners' manuals from various brands there. Unfortunately, Derby is not one of the ones for which the manual is available, but it is very similar to many of the others, once you understand an all pull changer.

There is more info and diagrams. See the 'Changer' section and you will understand the difference between the way a push-pull and all-pull changer works. There is a really nifty animated view of each. Links to those views are on this page.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1984 Sho-Bud S/D-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps
[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 11 February 2006 at 03:32 PM.]

Bill Bosler · Post by **Bill Bosler** » 11 Feb 2006 4:53 pm

Bobbe Seymour has a great video on setting up and tuning the p/p Emmons. It's worth every cent of the 30 bucks or so it costs. Don't leave home without it![This message was edited by Bill Bosler on 11 February 2006 at 04:55 PM.]

Boo Bernstein · Post by **Boo Bernstein** » 11 Feb 2006 6:07 pm

This is also another helpful site: http://www.melmusic.com/laceyj/guide.html

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 11 Feb 2006 6:22 pm

Perhaps you guys missed the point
Billy does not have a push pull guitar.

Studying how a push pull works will not help setting up and adjusting a Derby. It will only confuse things.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1984 Sho-Bud S/D-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Ron ! · Post by **Ron !** » 11 Feb 2006 6:29 pm

Larry is right.The question is about an All-Pull.There is a big difference between setting up and adjusting an All-Pull and a Push-Pull.

I think that there are enough posts here on the forum that explain the difference between the Push-Pull and the All-Pull.It surely will confuse you a lot.

Ron

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Duane Reese · Post by **Duane Reese** » 11 Feb 2006 9:50 pm

Billy,
You mentioned an empty guitar body and re-rodding? Could you give some more info on what you've got going on with that? Sounds interesting...

William Johnson · Post by **William Johnson** » 12 Feb 2006 12:12 am

thanks for the replys.

my Derby is working Great, thanks to Chralie and many others. i just want to study the mechanics and whys and hows of it all.

i guess i learned a point or so already: the Derby is an All Pull, not a Pull-Pull.

SO . . . we have push-pull, pull-pull and all-pull, right?

in my PSG years, i.e. 1973 to present, i have owned a Sho-Bud Student, Emmons LeGrande, Seirra, a ZUMM and now a Derby. i am not a very good player, but I love music and PSG have always reached at my heart, soul and mind. i have played music for years, many of which is on stages, some small and large, rock to country. since 1999 or so, i have been doing live sound, building and running recording studios and just listening to music and when i have time, playing some also.

thanks for the help.

peace to all,

Billy

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William Johnson (Billy)
Grievous Angel Productions
Statesboro, GA. 30461 USA
http://www.grievousangelpro.com

Derby DB10 E9
Custom BillieTele Telecaster
Peavey NV400
Peavey TubeFex
Goodrich 7A

Please 'Mouse' to see larger photo.

http://usera.imagecave.com/GreivousAngelPro/derbyfront.JPG

Summer 1969

http://usera.imagecave.com/GreivousAngelPro/Billy1969.JPG

Duane Reese · Post by **Duane Reese** » 12 Feb 2006 1:43 am

Good to hear you have a desire to learn about them push-pulls. It's always good to keep your understanding of this thing elastic, by studying other designs.

There is the push-pull (Emmons,Promat) whereby the raise rods pull and the lower rods push; all-pull where all the rods pull, and raise or lower depending on which finger they are going through; pull-release (old guitars - I had a Fender) where, for a string that lowers, you have a rod holding the finger all the time with a spring, and it lets go when it's time to lower. Did I forget any?

I've never actually heard of a pull-pull as opposed to an all-pull

Probably the same thing.

William Johnson · Post by **William Johnson** » 12 Feb 2006 3:18 am

that is why i said pull-pull. is there a diff between pull-pull and all-pull?

seriouly, is pull-pull the same as all-pull?

not being differcult, as i do not know, but i am interested in getting the correct facts in my old head.

you know the internet is a good piece of technology.

good thoughts to all,

billy

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William Johnson (Billy)
Grievous Angel Productions
Statesboro, GA. 30461 USA
http://www.grievousangelpro.com

Derby DB10 E9
Custom BillieTele Telecaster
Peavey NV400
Peavey TubeFex
Goodrich 7A

Please 'Mouse' to see larger photo.

http://usera.imagecave.com/GreivousAngelPro/derbyfront.JPG

Summer 1969

http://usera.imagecave.com/GreivousAngelPro/Billy1969.JPG

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 12 Feb 2006 7:07 am

Billy,
Call up the Emmons Guitar company and pick up a copy of a booklet called "methodology and practice of pedal steel guitar" or something like that. ($12 or so ) It does quite a bit to explain both systems. Also you should have a copy Winnie Winston's pedal steel guitar book if you don't already.

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Bob
upcoming gigs
My Website

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 12 Feb 2006 7:48 am

Billy,
I have never heard of a pull-pull changer. The abbreviation 'PP' you used in your original post is often used for 'push-pull', the Emmons system designed by Buddy Emmons and mfgd by Ron Lashley from the 60's thru the 80's, eventually replaced by the ALL PULL LeGrande and its successors the Lashley LeGrande, LeGrande II and LeGrande III. Interestingly, Buddy Emmons also named the LeGrande after the South American songwriter and jazz great Michel Legrande.

I'll say it again: Your Derby hass an ALL PULL changer system. There's too much confusion as is. Lets avoid calling it pull pull.

Bob,
The version/edition of 'Methodology and Practice. . . ' I have is the push-pull shop manual. My copy (purchased from Seymour as I recall) has very little that is pertinent to all pull guitars. It is a setup guide for original Emmons push-pull guitars. I believe there is a picture of a LeGrande on the last page but I don't recall anything about all-pull guitars in that manual. Maybe the edition from Emmons is different.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1984 Sho-Bud S/D-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 12 February 2006 at 08:29 AM.]

Lee Allen · Post by **Lee Allen** » 12 Feb 2006 7:55 am

There is one more .It was the nightmare
the Pull-Release.Was used years ago
on the Miller steels. Not sure if it was
used on other steels. My 2 cents.

[2] Sho~Buds and a sore back.
Lee Allen

Ricky Davis · Post by **Ricky Davis** » 12 Feb 2006 8:32 am

All-pull or Pull-Pull is the same, meaning...>a rod is pulling to raise and a rod is pulling to lower. Push-pull means; you are pulling to raise and pushing back to lower. Pull-release means; you are pulling to raise and releasing against the tension to lower.
So there's the 3 main mechanism explainations; of how the pedal steel has changed string pitch through the years.
Ricky

Duane Reese · Post by **Duane Reese** » 12 Feb 2006 10:45 am

You know there is and operational difference between push-pulls and all-pulls too...
On an all-pull, if you hit a lever (for example) that pulls a certain string sharp, and hit another at the same time that pulls that same string flat, the string note will kind of go in between. This is because the raise and lower bars kind of scissor, but I don't think the resulting note is quite exact, and the tension curve of the string is going to complicate that even more (it is pretty close though usually), but anyway...

Push-pulls are raise priority - meaning if you do the same thing, the lower will be ignored, as if you weren't even hitting it. This is all due to the way the fingers work in push-pulls compared to all-pulls.

By the way - there is another common abbreviation for push-pulls: "p/p" When you see this they are only going to be refering to one thing.

I had a pull release (an old Fender) and it wasn't too bad to manage, but if you had a string that had a raise and a lower, you had a little bit of an excessive gap before the raise started, as I recall. Plus, the tuning procedure was such that you had to do this:

Tune raises at nut with raise engaged
Tune open at lower nut
Tune lower at keyhead with lower engaged

Kind of opposite of a push-pull, where you have to...

Tune raises at keyhead with raise engaged
Tune open at raise screw
Tune lower at lower screw with lower engaged

All pulls are much more straight forward, but the other ones aren't impossible - they just take some getting used to.

Russ Wever · Post by **Russ Wever** » 12 Feb 2006 2:13 pm

. . . the South American songwriter and jazz great Michel Legrande

OT and perhaps trivial, but Michel Legrand is French.

~Russ

Per Berner · Post by **Per Berner** » 13 Feb 2006 12:14 am

FYI: Bobbe Seymour has an all-pull maintenance video on offer as well.

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´75 Emmons p/p D10 8+4, '96 Emmons Legrande II D10 8+5, ca '72 AWH Custom D10 8+3, Peavey Nashville 1000

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 13 Feb 2006 6:27 am

Duuuuh -- of course you're right, Russ
(and, yes, it is off topic, but worth correcting)

I was on my way out the door and for some reason was writing about Legrand and thinking Jobim.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1984 Sho-Bud S/D-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 13 February 2006 at 06:29 AM.]

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 13 Feb 2006 6:33 am

OT and also trivial, but I believe the first changer mechanism was "push-release," exemplified by the Harlin Multi-Kord changer and later used by Gibson in the Electraharp.

The "pull-release" changer started with Paul Bigsby on his guitars in the late 40's. That concept in turn influenced Chuck Wright and the rest of the mid-50's builders which included Sho-Bud, Miller, Marlen, et al., IMHO. The pull-release system carried on with some builders into the late 1960's, even after 1) the PP system came into being in the early 60's, and 2) the all-pull changer was perfected in the mid-to-late 60's. MSA developed a very smooth AP changer in the early 70's, I believe.

Fender had an early all-pull system in the late 50's. I don't recall Fender making a pull-release ever.

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

[This message was edited by Herb Steiner on 13 February 2006 at 06:35 AM.]

Duane Reese · Post by **Duane Reese** » 13 Feb 2006 2:07 pm

Herb,
The Fender that I had that was pull-release was a late '70's student model "ashtray" S-10 (no neck, black vinyl) that came as a 3-pedal 1-lever job; someone hot-rodded it and added three more levers. Good little guitar, but kind of short in the legs: