Buying Steel Guitar

Tony Lehr · Post by **Tony Lehr** » 6 Dec 2004 5:11 pm

Looking to buy steel with 3 pedals and at least 2 knee levers between 500&600$ dollars.

Gary Shepherd · Post by **Gary Shepherd** » 8 Dec 2004 2:08 pm

Four words. Carter Starter.

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Gary Shepherd

Sierra Session D-10

www.16tracks.com

RON PRESTON · Post by **RON PRESTON** » 13 Dec 2004 6:13 am

Gary.......
Is that four WORDS, or, four SYLABALS?
And..Did I SPELL that RIGHT?

"CAR-TER-STAR-TER" :0

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Emmons S-10 4 & 5
Evans FET 500, Session 400 LTD, ProFex 11

Bill Carpenter · Post by **Bill Carpenter** » 13 Dec 2004 3:09 pm

Carter Starter. Cheeeeeeeeeeeeep. Cheap construction, Cheap sound, Cheap customer service. After purchasing one of the junk guitars brand new and having problems with it and making to calls to Carter and asking for help with the P.O.S. and getting a good dose of cheap customer service, I dumped the junk and bought a real guitar, and will never buy another Carter guitar of any kind because of the lousy attitude of, it's a starter guitar, what do you expect. Well I expect it to function properly and not have a dead string that you can't get any sustain out of. Their suggested solution was to turn the pickup around. That did no good but they did not seem to care. Just J.F.'s (no need to mention names as we all know who is dragging Carter down with lousy service) way of not honoring a warranty for a defective cheeeeeep P.O.S. If they don't support the starter model then how can they be trusted to support the high dollar models. Don't waste your hard earned money on the cheeeeeeeep stuff. Get a real guitar and leave the cheeeeeep toys to the kids to play with. Bottom line is if you are serious about playing pedal steel get a real guitar not a cheeeep P.O.S Carter Starter.

GARYPHILLIPS · Post by **GARYPHILLIPS** » 13 Dec 2004 4:57 pm

give Chuck Back a call www.desertroseguitars.com
650.00 for pro starter steel guitar
not a toy starter

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Gary Phillips
JUST-N-CASE PLUS
D-10 8/5 Desert Rose Steel Guitar

Tony Lehr · Post by **Tony Lehr** » 13 Dec 2004 5:43 pm

Holy cow!
I was considering buying a carter starter, thanks for the warning!!!

Post by **Joey Ace** » 14 Dec 2004 4:12 am

Tony,
That's one man's opinion.
Do a search on this forum for "Carter Starter" and read others. There are a lot of posts.
Email these owners and find out their experiences.

I feel it's a great instrument for your price range.
Never owned one, but I played one at a jam last weekend.

Not near as good as my pro Carter or vintage Emmons, but a fraction of the price.

Do the research.

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 14 Dec 2004 7:17 am

If you don't have much money a Carter Starter is a decent option.

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Bob
intonation help

[This message was edited by Bob Hoffnar on 14 December 2004 at 07:23 AM.][This message was edited by Bob Hoffnar on 14 December 2004 at 07:26 AM.]

Bill Carpenter · Post by **Bill Carpenter** » 14 Dec 2004 8:47 am

Yes it is one just mans opinion. But one mans opinion who is not afraid to tell the truth about the cheap P.O.S Carter Starter.

Do the research, make your own decisions by all means.

Spend a little more and buy a GFI starter model or a decent used Mullen or MSA or Marlen. There are a lot of people on this forum who have good used equipment for sale.

It just seems a crying shame to waste that much money on a piece of junk when for 200.00 - 400.00 more will usually get you a great used guitar that will serve you well and last a long time.

Oh yeah, one more thing. While my opinion is my opinion,just as Joey's opinion, or anyone elses opinion,is their opinion, refusing to honor a warranty by makeing lame excuses on a defective P.O.S. is not an opinion it is a fact and bad business.

Bill Carpenter · Post by **Bill Carpenter** » 14 Dec 2004 8:51 am

Oh yeah, the Desert Rose Guitar blows the Carter right out of the pond. A much better built and better sounding guitar.

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 14 Dec 2004 1:12 pm

A lot of people like the Carter Starter. There is no better new guitar available at that price on the market today, IMHO.

The Carter Starter was designed for beginners. It's very lightweight. You can't change the copedent, but it is very playable and it has all 4 of the standard knee levers. People who want to change things around will naturally need a pro guitar. The CS isn't designed for their needs.

I think that Bill's characterisation of it as a "P.O.S." is out of line. Considering that a Desert Rose S-10 costs $1800, I would expect it to blow the Carter Starter "right out of the pond". (There's no mention of a lower priced model on the Desert Rose web site.)

I have heard many good comments about the Carter company's warranty service. I have to wonder what triggered this one bad experience. Did they actually refuse to honor the warranty, or did you sell the guitar before giving them full opportunity to make it right?

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/Hotb0b.gif" width="96 height="96">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra SD-12 (Ext E9), Williams D-12 Crossover, Sierra S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, C6, A6)

Ron ! · Post by **Ron !** » 14 Dec 2004 1:26 pm

Bill.

Could you please tell me what's wrong with a Carter Starter?
It's a good pedal to start with and it's not that expensive.If you are a newbie to the pedal steel guitar then the Carter Starter is a great Steel.

You saw with your own eyes that one man's opinion can change another man's mind.........just like that.
You are intitled to your opinion and I respect it but the way I see it you have a lack of respect for somebody's busines.

Ron

Nikaro SD10 4x6

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 14 Dec 2004 2:38 pm

urp...[This message was edited by Bob Hoffnar on 14 December 2004 at 02:39 PM.]

Bill Carpenter · Post by **Bill Carpenter** » 14 Dec 2004 5:25 pm

Ronald I will be happy to say it again. My Carter Starter was a P.O.S Perhaps the Carter Starter that you own and play and the Carter Starter that Bobby Lee owns and plays are good ones. Perhaps you have both had nothing but grand experiences with the warranty work you have had done. Perhaps you have never experienced their lousy attitude and customer service. If that is the case then all I can say is GREAT no one should have to be subjected to the bad experience that I was. Perhaps a lot of people do like the Carter Starter, and that is their perogitive. As for what was wrong with my Carter Starter, to start with when I received it, and unpacked it, the two right knee levers were nearly siezed. I called Carter and was told to lube them and work with then for a while and they would free up. I did this but they were never right, they were alway very stiff and I actually bent one of the knee levers while trying to use it, another sign of a cheap P.O.S. The third string had absolutely no sustain. It was like plunking a rubberband on a cigar box. I was told to turn the pickup around. I did this and it made no difference. It was a manufacturing/design defect. After that all I got was lousy attitude and lame excuses. I even went as far at attending the Dalls show, taking the Carter Starter with me. They would not even look at it, all I got was more lame excuses and lousy attitude. I knew when I bought it that it was a starter model and I knew that the codependant could not be changed. No problem with that, the original codependant was fine. I did however expect it to function properly and to play properly. It did not. As for not respecting another mans business. Well all I can say is that respect is earned not just given. Lousy customer service, lame excuses and not honoring a warranty does not earn respect. In fact it breeds distrust and makes for another unhappy customer. I was not the first and unfortunately I probably will not be the last because to many people who have never owned one continue to sing the praises of this P.O.S. I do not think that you can make a fair assesment of the quality of the Carter Starter based on simply sitting behind one at a show or convention and plaing it for a few minutes. Naturally the guitar taken to such an event has been set up and made to play as well as one can play. It is to bad that they are not all treated that way before being shipped to an unsuspecting beginner. I do not feel that my characterisation of the Carter Starter as a P.O.S. is out of line. It is my opinion of the Carter Starter that I owned. As I said perhaps the one that you bought, the one that you own, the one that you play is a good one. If so then you are lucky. Mine was a P.O.S. and I will stand by my opinion and description of this junk guitar and the lousy customer service that I received.

Ron Jones · Post by **Ron Jones** » 14 Dec 2004 8:37 pm

No it's not just one mans opinion it is a lot of folks opinion, most just won't admit it. I've never owned one but I know some that have and they were not very happy.

Bill Carpenter · Post by **Bill Carpenter** » 14 Dec 2004 9:21 pm

Well whatta ya know. It seems that I am not the only one who has had problems.

Tony Lehr · Post by **Tony Lehr** » 14 Dec 2004 10:48 pm

Getting a Carter Starter or spending 200$-400$ more for a better model. Lots to think about. The one thing I know for sure is I allways get super advice from the steelers on this forum who are looking out for my welfare. This Forum is really like a family.
Thanks to all.

Willis Vanderberg · Post by **Willis Vanderberg** » 15 Dec 2004 3:02 am

It has been my experience that if you buy a professional model steel you will not lose a dime on it, if it is properly taken care of. Now if you buy a new one you are going to take a hit up front. I would rather spend twelve or fifteen hundred for a quality guitar, and if and when you sell/trade it, you will recover most if not all you have in it.I don't recommend that a newbie buy a guitar on EBay.There are great guitars for sale right here on the forum. By all means get a good picker to help you decide on the quality of the instrument you are considering. Some professional guitars, that are played by very busy pickers, are wore out and will need a lot of help.
I have never had a negative experience with the Carter Company. They have always been very helpful, even with my questions about other brand guitars.They have always answered my e-mails and phone calls.I wouldn't let one or two dissenters change my mind on that.We all have negative experiences in our life. Learning pedal steel is a challenge and the road too success is full of stumbling blocks. The biggest one is ourselves...my two cents

Bud...(fifty seven years of pickin)

Don Sulesky · Post by **Don Sulesky** » 15 Dec 2004 4:56 am

Bud,
"You don't look that old to me."
Bud is right on one point, be very careful about buying a steel on E-bay.
I did that last January and although it looked great and was sold by a Music store in Seattle I had to completely rebuild it to make it playable. It is now a very nice Super Pro,but I have over a month's time in it.
So far I have found all Forumites to be honest and have not misreprented what they are selling.
This is a credit to this Forum and to those who belong to it.
Opinions they say are like...well you know the rest.
As far as buying a steel or any other instrument, I have always bought the top-of-the-line model and I have no regrets in doing so and I've been picking for 46 years.
Don[This message was edited by Don Sulesky on 15 December 2004 at 04:57 AM.]

John Fabian · Post by **John Fabian** » 15 Dec 2004 9:23 am

Bill Carpenter: First: I apologize for whatever perceived problems you had with our products, communications, and recommendations.

Your opinion is as valid as anyone's. You are, of course, free to continue your "verbal bomb throwing" but the "truth" is that you did NOT follow the simple procedure of sending the guitar back to get the requested work done under warranty. It is impossible for anyone to "honor a warranty" if you REFUSE to allow them to honor it. Your refusal to return the instrument and apparent unwillingness to communicate completely and effectively made it impossible for us to fix any of your perceived problems. If you have problems with your car, you take it in to the dealer (usually requiring an appointment). Additionally, I know of no car manufacturer displaying at a trade show which would look at your car there at a trade show (they would ask you to bring it to a service facility).

Most problems with steel guitars can be handled on the phone; however, some problems require the return of the instrument to the factory, dealer, or builder.

What follows is the history of our communications with Bill Carpenter and our observations on these communications:

April 13 2002: Email from Bill Carpenter saying he'd like to obtain literature, parts, and information from us on building his own pro-level pedal steel guitar; was looking for an low-cost method of doing this. We told him we did not have such information in print and sent him links to many of the public service and free information we have in print, including The Steel Guitar Information Resource: www.SteelGuitarINFO.com and Pedal Steel Guitar Illustrated: http://www.steelguitar.com/steelmap/steelmap.htm.

Bill Carpenter registered his Carter-Starter May 16 2002. He never returned the guitar as required by the Warranty that is published on the back of his Owner's Manual. By the way: we were very surprised when he purchased a Carter-Starter since he clearly wanted to build his own pro model. In fact, it did not take him long (about 2 weeks later) to call and ask how he could dress up or improve his Carter-Starter -- essentially to make it more like a pro model. We suggested that he may want to purchase a pro model instead (since such engineering work would require more money than a used pro model would cost). At the time, it appeared he did not like this advice.

Quoted from Carter-Starter Warranty:

Should any trouble develop during this 120-Day period, return the COMPLETE guitar, freight prepaid, to World Class Steels, Inc. dba Carter Steel Guitars' (hereinafter "WCSI") factory or to an Authorized Service Center.

Here's the first communication from Bill Carpenter to us regarding any problems (Note this is nearly 4 months after he purchased):

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Carpenter [mailto:bcarpenter@austin.rr.com]
Sent: Sunday, September 01, 2002 11:54 PM
To: psgbuilder@steelguitar.com
Subject: Carter Starter

Hello, I have a question concerning my Carter Starter Guitar.

On my guitar it is evident that strings 3 and 4 do not sound as loud as all of the rest. I am using Jagwire Carter Starter string sets. Is this normal, or could there be a problem with the pickup?

Thanks, - Bill Carpenter - Austin, TX <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

He was told to contact us by phone for tech support. He was given a good chunk of our time on the phone and these conversations gave us no hint that he was having unresolved RECURRING problems in which case he would have been told to ship the guitar back under warranty.

The advice given was based on past experience in that one of the blades in these Bill Lawrence pickups was occasionally a little weak due to variations in the magnetization process. At no time did Bill Carpenter request a replacement pickup nor did he communicate any further problems in that area. The same situation also occurred with the "stiff" knee lever problem. In other words, once he received our advice, he never got back to us to tell us the result of trying our recommendations.

Bill Carpenter had several possible remedies to his problems none of which he chose to utilize:

<UL>[*] If this Carter-Starter was as bad out of the box as he says, he could have taken advantage of Musician's Friend's "no questions asked" return policy:

If you are not completely satisfied with any product, return it for a full refund of the product purchase price, full credit, or exchange of your choice, within forty five (45) days from the shipping date. [emphasis added ]

NOTE: this essentially allows a Musician's Friend customer to purchase the Carter-Starter, try it for a reasonable period of time, and, if not satisfied, return it and receive a full refund.

[*] HE could have shipped the guitar to us or driven up to the factory from Austin, TX (only about 2 and 1/2 hrs) and gotten his problems resolved.[/list]

I even went as far at attending the Dalls[sic] show, taking the Carter Starter with me. They would not even look at it

Note: at the point he brought it to the Dallas show in March 2003, he had had the Carter-Starter for 10 months and it was a full 5 months after his first email (about any problems) to us.

At shows we DRIVE to, we will take guitars needing work back to our shop for repairs and ship them back to their owners. We cannot do repairs on guitars at shows due to a lack of time, tools, and materials. This was explained to Bill Carpenter along with the options of leaving it with us or shipping it to us. Obviously, none of these options suited Bill Carpenter.

After that all I got was lousy attitude and lame excuses.

Good Customer Service is a like a dance between 2 partners.

<UL>[*]The company has an obligation to clearly define what a customer can expect, what the company will do to rectify problems, and what the customer needs to do to get that service.

[*] The customer has an obligation to clearly communicate what the problem is, find out what his duties and obligations are, and then FOLLOW the necessary procedures to get the desired remedy.[/list]

We honor our Warranties. We also do not recommend the Carter-Starter to someone who really wants the quality of a pro model pedal steel guitar.

The Carter-Starter is designed for beginners and has been very successful in helping many people to learn to play pedal steel guitar. In fact, we have shipped approximately 2,500 Carter-Starters to date with very few technical problems. We stand behind our products.

Again, I apologize for whatever perceived problems you had with our products, communications, and recommendations.

John Fabian
Carter Steel Guitars
www.SteelGuitar.com
www.SteelGuitarINFO.com
www.OnLineSteelers.com
www.CarterStarter.com

[This message was edited by John Fabian on 15 December 2004 at 10:18 AM.]

CrowBear Schmitt · Post by **CrowBear Schmitt** » 15 Dec 2004 9:39 am

Well, you've got to hand it to John for takin' the time from his work & priorities and gettin' down on this case.
Even though i don't own a Carter, i would like to vouch for the Steelers here in France that do own Carters,
that John & Anne regularly go out of their way to inquire if things are ok w; the Carters they have.
that's goin' an extra mile now is'nt it ?

Bill Carpenter · Post by **Bill Carpenter** » 15 Dec 2004 10:18 am

They were not percieved problems they were actual problems. I asked to send it back to Carter and was told that it could be handled without doing that. Again it was not. I did take it to the show and yes I had had it about 10 months at that time and was given the old brush off at that time. Now is a fine time to say that you would have taken care of the problem. That is not what I got from you then. My guitar was a piece of junk. I received lousy support and no warranty service from Carter Steel Guitars. I got lousy attitude from John and his wife Anne. I fully expect you to defend yourself. After all one dissatisfied customer can cost you at least ten possible new customers and it is my intention to cost you many more than that. I will continue to tell anyone who will listen that the Carter Starter is a P.O.S. and that the customer service treatment that I got was sub standard to say the least. It is too bad that we can't show transcripts of the actual phone calls that I made and of the actual meeting, and what was really said at the Dallas Show by both John and his wife Anne. If you read what John has posted then you will undoubtedly see that I did try to contact Carter and was more than civil when trying to get the problems solved. Thanks John for posting that much of the truth. I stand by my original post and description of the P.O.S. Carter Starter that I purchased. I stand by my comments as to the lousy treatment, attitude and customer service that I received. I tried to do the right thing, and get the problems handled in a good civil business manner to no avail. Now after all this time John, you are trying to make out like I did not, and that you were trying to be helpful and fulfill your obligations. You sang a much different tune when we spoke on the phone and face to face at the show. Now you are simply making more excuses for why you did not take care of the problems then.

I am not the only one, nor am I the first to experience your brand of customer service nor am I the only one who has been dissatisfied with a Carter Starter. I guess I am however the first to so vigorously vocalize my opinions in an open forum.

I also stated that anyone interested in purchasing a first Steel should do their own research and make there own decisions. That research should also include speaking with the many dissatisfied Carter Starter owners in order to make an informed decision before spending their hard earned money.

I am just another of a long list of dissatisfied former Carter Starter owners.

Post by **Joey Ace** » 15 Dec 2004 12:18 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> he could have taken advantage of Musician's Friend's "no questions asked" return policy:

quote:If you are not completely satisfied with any product, return it for a full refund of the product purchase price, full credit, or exchange of your choice, within forty five (45) days from the shipping date.

NOTE: this essentially allows a Musician's Friend customer to purchase the Carter-Starter, try it for a reasonable period of time, and, if not satisfied, return it and receive a full refund<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I didn't know "Musician's Friend" had such a great return policy. That really allows the buyer to find out for themselves.

I'm very impressed.

Gary Watkins · Post by **Gary Watkins** » 15 Dec 2004 3:04 pm

Bill,
I am looking for a low cost beginner steel. What do you want for your Carter Starter?

Gary Watkins

Bill Carpenter · Post by **Bill Carpenter** » 19 Dec 2004 8:14 pm

Gary, I got rid that P.O.S a long time a go.

Do yourself a favor and buy a real guitar. Don't waste your hard earned money on one of those.