Hello Forumites-
I have a Marlen S10 Pull-Release 3P 3L with E 9th Day setup.
Lowering the 4th String from E to D# requires engaging the LKL and tuning the hex screw at the end plate. The problem is that when I turn the hex screw counterclockwise or clockwise nothing happens to the tuning even though then hex screw moves out and in. It stays on the E note. Is there a pretty easy fix for that?
Thank you.
Problem with lowering tuning at changer
Moderator: Shoshanah Marohn
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Gary Hoetker
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- Location: California, USA
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David Ball
- Posts: 1229
- Joined: 18 Feb 2010 1:37 pm
- Location: North Carolina High Country
The fourth string on a pull release guitar seems to be the "problem child" for tuning. The open string tuning is going to be underneath the guitar somewhere--probably on one the E lowering lever. It sounds like this adjustment has been pulled too tightly and the changer finger can't go lower. I'd look on the underside and see what's there.
When it's right, first you tune the highest note (with pedal C pressed) at the key head. Then, you tune the lowest note (with the knee lever that's not working right at the time) with the hex screw at the end plate. Next, you tune the open note underneath the guitar somewhere--probably on the E lowering lever, and finally you tune the E raise knee lever underneath, probably at that lever.
If it's one of the newer Marlen pull release guitars with the nylon tuning nuts, the adjustment could be at the end plate.
It's a pain in the rear to do, but tends to stay put once you get it right. But it's pretty much got to be done in this order. If the open note was tuned before the lower, you end up in the situation you're in right now.
Good luck!
Dave
When it's right, first you tune the highest note (with pedal C pressed) at the key head. Then, you tune the lowest note (with the knee lever that's not working right at the time) with the hex screw at the end plate. Next, you tune the open note underneath the guitar somewhere--probably on the E lowering lever, and finally you tune the E raise knee lever underneath, probably at that lever.
If it's one of the newer Marlen pull release guitars with the nylon tuning nuts, the adjustment could be at the end plate.
It's a pain in the rear to do, but tends to stay put once you get it right. But it's pretty much got to be done in this order. If the open note was tuned before the lower, you end up in the situation you're in right now.
Good luck!
Dave
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Joseph Myers
- Posts: 45
- Joined: 29 May 2019 4:00 pm
- Location: North Carolina, USA
Hello,
what year is your Marlen. Does it have the opening access on the end plate with nylon tuner or is does it just have the row of top screws for tuning?
Is your lower lever stop not allowing it to go any lower?
Also how many rods are going into your 4th string finger. Some time the other rod(s) holds the finger from moving any further lower so the screw keeps turning without effect. There has to be enough slack in the other rods to allow the lower. Most likely have to get that from under the guitar
joe
what year is your Marlen. Does it have the opening access on the end plate with nylon tuner or is does it just have the row of top screws for tuning?
Is your lower lever stop not allowing it to go any lower?
Also how many rods are going into your 4th string finger. Some time the other rod(s) holds the finger from moving any further lower so the screw keeps turning without effect. There has to be enough slack in the other rods to allow the lower. Most likely have to get that from under the guitar
joe
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Gary Hoetker
- Posts: 343
- Joined: 19 Aug 2013 11:05 am
- Location: California, USA
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Gary Hoetker
- Posts: 343
- Joined: 19 Aug 2013 11:05 am
- Location: California, USA
Joe and David-
1.The metal plate underneath shows just shows Model S10F and Serial #466791. There is no year made shown. I bought the guitar over 20 years ago and don't know if the manufacturer Stadler Co is still in business. I can check.
2. I do have opening access on the end plate with nylon tuners.
I find my left knee lever wont go any lower than E for the 4th and 8th open strings. The instructions for Pull Release says to tune both of those open strings to D# at the metal changers on the end plate. As I said, nothing happens when I turn the hex nuts at the end plate. I checked underneath and found when I engage the LKL lever the nylon tube at the 4th string and 8th string position move back and forth. That's where I think I'm confused. Why do the nylon tubes move if I lowered the tunings at the end changers? I'm not sure about ? about the 4th string finger? Is that the vertical metal part just inside the end plate that the rod goes through?
Sorry if I'm not I'm not clear?
1.The metal plate underneath shows just shows Model S10F and Serial #466791. There is no year made shown. I bought the guitar over 20 years ago and don't know if the manufacturer Stadler Co is still in business. I can check.
2. I do have opening access on the end plate with nylon tuners.
I find my left knee lever wont go any lower than E for the 4th and 8th open strings. The instructions for Pull Release says to tune both of those open strings to D# at the metal changers on the end plate. As I said, nothing happens when I turn the hex nuts at the end plate. I checked underneath and found when I engage the LKL lever the nylon tube at the 4th string and 8th string position move back and forth. That's where I think I'm confused. Why do the nylon tubes move if I lowered the tunings at the end changers? I'm not sure about ? about the 4th string finger? Is that the vertical metal part just inside the end plate that the rod goes through?
Sorry if I'm not I'm not clear?
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Joseph Myers
- Posts: 45
- Joined: 29 May 2019 4:00 pm
- Location: North Carolina, USA
The year is 1976 (serial # read backwards) and Marlens are no longer in business.
Mine is a 1968 so I don't have the window with the nylon tuners. So my knowledge, as limited as it is, will be a bit different.
Since yours has the nylons and access, I think it may be easier to sort out?
Yes the finger is where the rods go through
When you try to lower the E's (strings 4/8) to D# you get no pitch change at all?
Is there a screw on the knee lever underneath that stops the lever moving any further? that can be adjusted to let the knee lever travel further
Do you have any photos of the changer underneath
I am pretty new to the pull/release Marlens myself and am by no means a expert at all but I learned a lot getting mine set up so I do my best to help where I can.
joe
Mine is a 1968 so I don't have the window with the nylon tuners. So my knowledge, as limited as it is, will be a bit different.
Since yours has the nylons and access, I think it may be easier to sort out?
Yes the finger is where the rods go through
When you try to lower the E's (strings 4/8) to D# you get no pitch change at all?
Is there a screw on the knee lever underneath that stops the lever moving any further? that can be adjusted to let the knee lever travel further
Do you have any photos of the changer underneath
I am pretty new to the pull/release Marlens myself and am by no means a expert at all but I learned a lot getting mine set up so I do my best to help where I can.
joe
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Ian Worley
- Posts: 2119
- Joined: 14 Jan 2012 12:02 pm
- Location: Sacramento, CA
The solution is almost certainly contained in the stuff David covered in the first response, but the description of your problem is a bit too vague for anyone here to give you a very precise answer. It would help greatly to post some pics. The mechanisms on these things are really a very simple. Where in CA are you? If you're near Jim Palenscar I'm sure he'd have you sorted in no time.
It's most likely the issue of insufficient slack on the raise pull rods that David mentioned. To add to what David said above, raise rods on a pull-release guitar must always allow for the full range of motion between the lowest and highest notes on any given string. If you've tried to adjust the "slop" out of the raises on string 4, that would likely be the root of the problem.
It sounds like your guitar is the later style P-R Marlen, the physical stop for the highest note on any given string is the body. That is, the changer finger needs to pull tight against the edge of the hole in the body at the highest raise on that string. On string 4 that's the F# on the C pedal.
The physical stop for the lowest note is the hex screw on the end in the changer housing. For strings that don't have any lowers, the open note is tuned with the hex screws. If there is a lower but no raise, the lower is tuned there and the open note is accomplished by a lower return spring holding the finger tight against the body. Marlens have the lower return springs on the ends of the lowering rods (keyhead end).
In any case, the highest note is always tuned first, the lowest second, the open note third. I don't know how yours is set up, but the intermediate F raise would typically be tuned with a half-tone tuner underneath, or with a separate raise rod and nylon nut. Do you have three nylon nuts on string 4, or only two?
In any case, you can trouble shoot the problem by backing off the nylon nuts on string 4. Reach underneath and manually push the finger tight against the body (the max raise position) and tune the F# at the key head. Gently release the finger to let the string tension pull it the other way, then tune the D# with the hex screw on the end. Again, it's important that the nylons and any collars are slacked off so they are not affecting the full range of motion of the finger by itself.
With the finger still in that fully lowered position, tighten the raise rod nylon to leave just a tiny amount of slack (this will likely need to be adjusted again later). Next, tune the open E with the nylon on the lowering rod, then test the lower lever to make sure it releases all the way to the screw stop. If not, you'll need to increase the lever's travel. There should be a stop collar on the lowering rod that rests against a block or bracket. Just loosen it and shift it over a little to allow more range of motion in the lever. You may need to disconnect the lower return spring on that rod temporarily, or hold it with visegrips or something. It might take a little trial and error. Once that is set, re-tune the open E with the nylon on the lowering rod. You may need to repeat the above steps to fine tune.
To set the C pedal, you need to sync the pedal's travel so it reaches its stop at the same point the raise finger contacts the body where you tuned the F# earlier. Engage the pedal fully and tighten the nylon just enough to push the finger firmly against the body where you tuned the F# earlier. This is the point where the slack sometimes gets inadvertently removed, resulting in the sort of problem you're having. When the pedal is released, the rod needs to have enough slack to not restrict the lower. If it does, you still need more range of travel in the C pedal. If you have to change the travel on the C pedal much, you will likely need to adjust string 5 too, reset it so you can get both string 4 and 5 to end their pull at the same point. You can manually tune 5 in a similar way with the raise to C# pulled tight against the body, but if there are no lowers, the open note will be the lowest. If so, you would tune it with the hex screw in the changer housing.
Proper slack is the key. If the guitar has been adjusted haphazardly it might take a little trial and error to get everything synced up right between the required range of travel on the pedals/levers and the stops and tuning nuts, but once you do, it will tune up easily and stably pretty much forever thereafter.
If you're still having trouble, or if this all sound like Greek, just take the guitar to Jim or anybody who understands P-R they should have it sorted in 5-10 minutes, less time than it took to type this post. Good luck
It's most likely the issue of insufficient slack on the raise pull rods that David mentioned. To add to what David said above, raise rods on a pull-release guitar must always allow for the full range of motion between the lowest and highest notes on any given string. If you've tried to adjust the "slop" out of the raises on string 4, that would likely be the root of the problem.
It sounds like your guitar is the later style P-R Marlen, the physical stop for the highest note on any given string is the body. That is, the changer finger needs to pull tight against the edge of the hole in the body at the highest raise on that string. On string 4 that's the F# on the C pedal.
The physical stop for the lowest note is the hex screw on the end in the changer housing. For strings that don't have any lowers, the open note is tuned with the hex screws. If there is a lower but no raise, the lower is tuned there and the open note is accomplished by a lower return spring holding the finger tight against the body. Marlens have the lower return springs on the ends of the lowering rods (keyhead end).
In any case, the highest note is always tuned first, the lowest second, the open note third. I don't know how yours is set up, but the intermediate F raise would typically be tuned with a half-tone tuner underneath, or with a separate raise rod and nylon nut. Do you have three nylon nuts on string 4, or only two?
In any case, you can trouble shoot the problem by backing off the nylon nuts on string 4. Reach underneath and manually push the finger tight against the body (the max raise position) and tune the F# at the key head. Gently release the finger to let the string tension pull it the other way, then tune the D# with the hex screw on the end. Again, it's important that the nylons and any collars are slacked off so they are not affecting the full range of motion of the finger by itself.
With the finger still in that fully lowered position, tighten the raise rod nylon to leave just a tiny amount of slack (this will likely need to be adjusted again later). Next, tune the open E with the nylon on the lowering rod, then test the lower lever to make sure it releases all the way to the screw stop. If not, you'll need to increase the lever's travel. There should be a stop collar on the lowering rod that rests against a block or bracket. Just loosen it and shift it over a little to allow more range of motion in the lever. You may need to disconnect the lower return spring on that rod temporarily, or hold it with visegrips or something. It might take a little trial and error. Once that is set, re-tune the open E with the nylon on the lowering rod. You may need to repeat the above steps to fine tune.
To set the C pedal, you need to sync the pedal's travel so it reaches its stop at the same point the raise finger contacts the body where you tuned the F# earlier. Engage the pedal fully and tighten the nylon just enough to push the finger firmly against the body where you tuned the F# earlier. This is the point where the slack sometimes gets inadvertently removed, resulting in the sort of problem you're having. When the pedal is released, the rod needs to have enough slack to not restrict the lower. If it does, you still need more range of travel in the C pedal. If you have to change the travel on the C pedal much, you will likely need to adjust string 5 too, reset it so you can get both string 4 and 5 to end their pull at the same point. You can manually tune 5 in a similar way with the raise to C# pulled tight against the body, but if there are no lowers, the open note will be the lowest. If so, you would tune it with the hex screw in the changer housing.
Proper slack is the key. If the guitar has been adjusted haphazardly it might take a little trial and error to get everything synced up right between the required range of travel on the pedals/levers and the stops and tuning nuts, but once you do, it will tune up easily and stably pretty much forever thereafter.
If you're still having trouble, or if this all sound like Greek, just take the guitar to Jim or anybody who understands P-R they should have it sorted in 5-10 minutes, less time than it took to type this post. Good luck
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David Ball
- Posts: 1229
- Joined: 18 Feb 2010 1:37 pm
- Location: North Carolina High Country
I wish I had said that! I know the concept, but Ian explains it in such a more descriptive way than I could.
I love the old pull release guitars, but like Push Pull Emmons guitars, they force you into a different way of thinking to make them work. Once you get them to work, they work remarkably well and at their best sound absolutely great. The action can be really good too.
Dave
I love the old pull release guitars, but like Push Pull Emmons guitars, they force you into a different way of thinking to make them work. Once you get them to work, they work remarkably well and at their best sound absolutely great. The action can be really good too.
Dave
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richard burton
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- Location: Britain
I am trying to put a Marlen single 12 back into extended E9 tuning and I don’t have too much reference to go by. Can someone show me some pictures going into detail about exactly how the rods with springs are attached that tune the midpoint open notes after the raises and lowers have been set? The ones with the nylon tuners. In this first picture, what purpose does this cross shaft serve? It is not attached to any pedal or knee lever. What rods should be going through it and how should they be attached?
Kevin Maul: Airline, Beard, Clinesmith, Decophonic, Evans, Excel, Fender, Fluger, Gibson, Hilton, Ibanez, Justice, K+K, Live Strings, MOYO, National, Oahu, Peterson, Quilter, Rickenbacher, Sho~Bud, Supro, TC, Ultimate, VHT, Webb, X-otic, Yamaha, ZKing.
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Ian Worley
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- Location: Sacramento, CA
Kevin, there are some pics in a thread from last year when b0b was sorting out a similar issue on a later Marlen S10, they might be helpful, it's here: https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtop ... 4bc38571e7. My post above was an edit of a response I posted in that thread. The Marlen b0b was working on was Day though, with the E lowers on LKL, so the setup is a little different than yours. The dummy cross shaft and bell cranks in the middle served as the neutral stop for those spring-loaded lower return rods, they were set in a fixed position.
I haven't seen enough of these to know for sure what would have been "correct" when it was built new, but there are lots of ways to get the same result. You can set it up the old school way with just a spring at the lowering lever itself to resist string tension and hold it in the neutral position.
I haven't seen enough of these to know for sure what would have been "correct" when it was built new, but there are lots of ways to get the same result. You can set it up the old school way with just a spring at the lowering lever itself to resist string tension and hold it in the neutral position.
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Donny Hinson
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