Sho-Bud Restoration Question

George Ross · Post by **George Ross** » 3 Jan 2006 7:41 pm

After some agonizing (mostly over cost $$$) I have decided to completely replace the undercarriage on my Sho-Bud Professional. I've been debating whether to order parts from John Coop and do the work myself or have Duane Marrs do the restoration. I'm fairly handy and would enjoy doing the work myself, plus Duane has a ~1 year waiting list, but I'm wondering if Duane's restoration is a better mechanism. Any advice/comments? Any other options that I'm not aware of?

Thanks!
George

Al Terhune · Post by **Al Terhune** » 3 Jan 2006 8:21 pm

George,

My understanding -- and I could be wrong, is that although Duane's parts are great parts, Coop's parts are Sho Bud replicas (better than the originals in many/if not all instances), whereas Duane's are "Marrs" parts. So...it's what you're wanting. I might be a bit biased, as Ricky is rebuilding my Sho Bud as I type this with Coop parts.

Al

Kevin Hatton · Post by **Kevin Hatton** » 3 Jan 2006 9:45 pm

All I can tell you is that Duane's system is extremely accurate. Thats one reason he has a year long waiting list. Coops replacement parts seem to make alot of sense to me. They look better than the originals and are probably 100% reliable. Thats a big plus.

George Ross · Post by **George Ross** » 4 Jan 2006 6:32 am

From a mechanism standpoint I'm more interested in accuracy, reliability and smooth, tight response than I am about authenticity so Duane's parts being different doesn't bother me per se.

I did forget to mention tone, however. I'd be very cautious about any changes that alter tone, particularly if they make the instrument brighter or thinner sounding.

Thanks,
George

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 4 Jan 2006 6:37 am

It should be noted that with the new Marrs conversion, the changer endplate is cut to accomodate the changer fingers and non-adjustable return springs, so if you commit to Marrs parts, there's no going back to retrofit with Coop parts.

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Marco Schouten · Post by **Marco Schouten** » 4 Jan 2006 7:21 am

Am I correct to understand that with John Coops parts you will get an undercarriage which looks like the original, just new and more precise parts, whereas with the Marrs upgrade, the guitar gets a new modern style of undercarriage?

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Marco Schouten
Sho-Bud LLG; Guyatone 6 string lap steel; John Pearse bar; Emmons bar; Evans SE200 amp

Grant Johnson · Post by **Grant Johnson** » 4 Jan 2006 11:28 am

Marco-
That is exactly what you are looking at. I have been going the Coop route on my PRO II Custom. So far I have replaced the KL's, The KL brackets, some of the mounting brackets, the lever stop on my RKR, and white fretboards. I have been thinking about super-fingers, but will wait as my Bud holds its tune really well, but I know eventually the zinc fingers will wear out...

Jon James · Post by **Jon James** » 4 Jan 2006 2:28 pm

George, with the coop parts are you going to switch from the baskets to the two-hole puller? I am in the process of adding the coop parts to my single neck professional and am having a lot of fun.

George Ross · Post by **George Ross** » 4 Jan 2006 5:01 pm

That's what I was planning on doing, Jon. My old basket pullers are worn and noisy. Coop's 2-hole pullers look like works of art and have brass/nylon bushings, and he says they will work just fine with the older Professional brass tuning barrels.

I'm leaning towards going that route instead of the Marrs restore, but I'd still like to hear what anyone has to say about what the Marrs changer system does to the tone.

George

James Morehead · Post by **James Morehead** » 4 Jan 2006 6:03 pm

Both conversions are fabulous. Both John and Duane worked for Shot way back when in Shobud history. If I'm wrong, someone will correct that statement. Both John and Duane are swamped with work, because they are both great at what they do. AND I have NO experience with either builder, as far as putting my hands on a Marrs project OR a Coop project. So what am I doing here?

Well, I AM having a complete redo with John Coop, and I'll tell ya why.(drum roll, please!) I have heard beautiful things about Duanes projects, too, it's like chevys vs. fords. They are both great. It's who you think can deliver what you think you need for your guitar, to get the playability and tone that your imagination keeps tormenting you about!

I am having my '70 Professional done by John C., as I have heard Ricky Davis play the Pro II that John put Super fingers in for Big Jim Murphy about 8 years ago. I liked the tone, not because I heard one of Duanes guitars(which I have not) and AB'ed both guitar builders projects, but because something about the tone of Murph's guitar just grabbed me. I wondered why? I have never heard one of Duane's guitars, but folks on this forum have, and they love them, too. John's projects are also loved. Chevys/Fords.

So, why was Murph's tone so great? As I understand, John has eliminated as much slack out of the mechanisms as possible, and yet the mechanisms work perfect. Slack DAMPENS tone. Infact, slack KILLS tone! If you tighten up all the slack you can, your tone is greatly enhanced.(your parts last much longer, too) That's why Murph's guitar's tone jumped out and grabbed me. It might have been the best Bud tone I've heard! Some who have John's parts have commented the tone actually got BETTER, than they have ever heard out of their guitar before. So that's why I went with John's theory, hearing Murph's guitar. If you are like me, George, you can't afford to do but just one guitar, and that leads to a real tough decision--but this is SOOOO subjective----------

Leon Roberts · Post by **Leon Roberts** » 4 Jan 2006 7:16 pm

Monday I will get started putting Ernie Cawby’s Professional back together with John Coop’s replacement parts. I’ll post some photos when the job is completed. The before photos are posted below. When I get through with it, we will do an A B test with my refurbished Professional. We will get Dana Flood to be the test picker.

Leon

George Ross · Post by **George Ross** » 4 Jan 2006 9:47 pm

Very cool, Leon! What parts were used for your own rebuild?

Ernie's guitar body looks exactly like mine except I don't have my name on the front.

George

Leon Roberts · Post by **Leon Roberts** » 5 Jan 2006 4:37 am

George, My good friend,Albert Johnson, machined the top part of my changers from Aluminum. The bottom parts of the changers, the raise and lowering bars, are stock Sho-Bud triple raise/double lower. The undercarriage and knee lever parts were made by me. I can email you some photos if you would like.
Leon

George Ross · Post by **George Ross** » 5 Jan 2006 6:50 am

I'd love to see 'em, Leon. I should say at this point that I've pretty much decided to go with JC parts and do the work myself. The choice is pretty subjective, but I'm not hearing a compelling preference for the Marrs mechanism although both have their advocates. For me the determining factors are:

1) They are both high quality but the Coop method doesn't alter the guitar as much.

2) I can do the work myself. (I'll enjoy it, plus I save a little money)

3) No wait list or shipping my guitar.

Thanks,
George

Leon Roberts · Post by **Leon Roberts** » 5 Jan 2006 11:36 am

George, going from the rack and barrel system to John Coop's parts will require relocating some screw holes. On Ernie's Professional I will plug the un-needed holes with pieces from an oak dowel and then Flock the bottm. I'm not a big fan of splatter paint and Ernie gave me the Okay on this. In fact, this is the same proceedure I used on his old Pro-I shown below. Everything you see on the under carriage I manufactured with the exception of the pedal stops..

Leon

George Ross · Post by **George Ross** » 5 Jan 2006 12:22 pm

I was aware that I'll have to relocate some screw holes. I'll plug the old holes and then probably repaint the bottom, though I may try careful touch up painting the plugged holes first. Against the splatter paint background it may blend in ok.

George

Ernest Cawby · Post by **Ernest Cawby** » 11 Jan 2006 5:51 am

George the sound Leon gets from his Professional is just great and the mecanics are smooth as silk, my Pro 1 is a work of art, Leon does great work.

ernie

Leon Roberts · Post by **Leon Roberts** » 18 Jan 2006 3:55 pm

Here is a midway report on Ernie’s guitar. A top view is below. I had to polish the tuning heads, tuners and end plates. The changer plates were polished by John Coop.

Another photo of the top.

Below is a photo of the bottom after the changers and the guide plates were fitted. You will notice some alteration to the cabinet so the changers will work properly. When I get finished fitting all John Coop’s parts to the guitar, I’ll remove them and re-flock the cabinet and reinstall them. I doubt seriously that a novice could install John Coop’s parts to an older Sho-Bud. In other words, don’t try this at home. Ricky and I are professionals.

Leon
[This message was edited by Leon Roberts on 18 January 2006 at 04:00 PM.]

Sonny Priddy · Post by **Sonny Priddy** » 18 Jan 2006 6:09 pm

Duane Done A Sho-Bud Super Pro And A LDG for Me They Were Better than New. SONNY.

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Ernest Cawby · Post by **Ernest Cawby** » 18 Jan 2006 7:13 pm

Duane does good work, on guitars he works on, I haVE PLAYED SOME, THEY ARE GREAT.

ErNIE

George Ross · Post by **George Ross** » 19 Jan 2006 6:32 am

Leon,

Looks like you are making good progress. Did you also enlarge the rectangular openings in the end plate to allow full access to Coop's triple raise / double lower changers?

George

Leon Roberts · Post by **Leon Roberts** » 19 Jan 2006 2:06 pm

George, the answer is yes, except the changers John Coop sent me for Ernie's guitar were double raise/double lower. Below is a photo of my Professional with triple raise/double lower changers. The raise and lowering bars are stock Sho-Bud and the tops were machined from aluminum by Albert Johnson. I had the open slots on the end plate welded and I re-machined them for the enlarged holes.

Leon

Dave Diehl · Post by **Dave Diehl** » 19 Jan 2006 4:37 pm

I have to agree with Sonny. I was totally pleased with the job Duane did on my Pro II.

Terry Edwards · Post by **Terry Edwards** » 19 Jan 2006 4:59 pm

It is really nice to know that both Duane and Coop are providing outstanding restorations of these national treasures we call Sho-Buds!

I have visited the Marrs web site. Does John Coop have a web site?

(I want a nice old playable prestine Sho-Bud really really bad!)

There's just something about WOOD!!

Terry

Leon Roberts · Post by **Leon Roberts** » 28 Jan 2006 6:53 pm

I promised some after photos of Ernie’s Professional. There is quite a lot of tweaking to do to get it playing smoothly. Apparently the $1000.00 Ernie paid John Coop didn’t include raise helper springs. I’ll put some of mine on and this should help to smooth the action. With out the helper spring, it plays tough.

Dana Flood is up North assisting his Mother with some health problems. We didn’t have him to do the A=B test so tonight I played both Professionals through a “WALKER STEREO STEEL” amp with a Boss SE-50 effects processor. I will withhold my findings until Dana returns and then we will get a bunch of pickers together and decide the final results while Dana is playing both guitars through the same amp and volume pedal. The only other difference will be TrueTone single coils in Ernie’s guitar and Jerry Wallace Sho-Bud rewinds in my guitar.

Leon
[This message was edited by Leon Roberts on 29 January 2006 at 06:34 AM.]