All My Steel Guitar Amps Have Become Horse & Buggy

Brett Lanier · Post by **Brett Lanier** » 28 Jun 2019 8:43 am

David, have you seen this? https://www.moddevices.com/

There have been similar things in the past, like the stuff made by Muse Research, or Mode Machines.

Unfortunately, the Mod Device pedal only works with Linux... It's only a matter of time though before something comes out that can run AU and VST plug-ins. Seems like an Eventide H9 or Line6 Helix isn't that much different, just designed to run proprietary plug-ins. I'm looking forward to the day that I hit a stompbox with my hand and have a Soundtoys effect rack immediately engaged.

David Mitchell · Post by **David Mitchell** » 28 Jun 2019 9:17 am

Yes Brett I saw the Muse device many years ago but it was several thousand dollars versus free for this system provided you have a halfway decent laptop and a low latency sound card. It puts things like this in the reach of a working musician. I've engineered in studios all my life so I've had everything including all the vintage stuff people dream about but for free how could it not be any good? Another thing is that I'm blind in one eye so those little LCD windows don't work too good for me. I want to see it all at one time on a fairly big screen.

David Mitchell · Post by **David Mitchell** » 28 Jun 2019 12:16 pm

Man! That mod duo is $700.00 The point I'm trying to make and it seems I have failed is any digital effects unit you buy is a computer with a cpu. Even the Muse and Mod Duo are just computers. If you have already paid for a home laptop computer years ago why buy even another computer to do effects with. If you already have a computer laying around why not use it?
It don't even matter if you don't play gigs and just play or record at home if you have a computer you have an effects processor just load the software in it and thousands of great effects are free now on the internet. No need to pay for anything. I've said all I'm gonna say. I told everyone how to make a great Processor with a home computer and a low latency audio interface and if they don't want to do it there's nothing more I can say. It all boils down to you make your choice and spend your money.

Brett Lanier · Post by **Brett Lanier** » 28 Jun 2019 12:46 pm

I hope you don't think I'm trying to give you a hard time. I've considered adding a computer to my setup for all the reasons you've explained, which you've done clearly.

But what about the practical application of this setup? You still need an interface, re-amp box (if you're going to a guitar amp), connections to all these pieces, and some way of adjusting the parameters so you're not locked into one sound without scrolling around on a laptop. Effects pedals with knobs are just way more convenient for playing live.

David Mitchell · Post by **David Mitchell** » 28 Jun 2019 12:53 pm

Brett all I'm using to make it work great is a win 7 computer and an Audient id14 USB interface connected to the computer but any low latency AD/DA converter will work. For monitoring through my amp I just come out of the headphone jack of the Audient interface. The signal is hot and clean. I have the option at any time to take the computer out of the chain by bypassing or turning the program off. It doesn't effect what's coming out of the headphone jack. The guitar amp behind me keeps working as normal with the program off. I'm here to answer any questions and glad you have an interest in it Brett. Thanks.

Scott Denniston · Post by **Scott Denniston** » 28 Jun 2019 4:57 pm

Thanks David. This looks like fun. I used Cantable years ago to host vst's with my Akai DPS24. It worked flawlessly and I couldn't notice any latency. It seems I was using scsi to loop the fx into the DPS.
Lately I've been playing through a Kemper and it leaves little to be desired for me and I have a history of great amps. I like new toys though especially free ones. As far as hooking it to an amp I think I'd just have it host a Scuffham Amp (vst) and run it FOH. Then scuffham has a bunch of great fx too. Can't wait to try those verbs. Thanks again!

David Mitchell · Post by **David Mitchell** » 28 Jun 2019 5:08 pm

You are very welcome Scott! Hey you can't be another free processor. I'm an equipment junky so the more the better!

Scott Denniston · Post by **Scott Denniston** » 28 Jun 2019 6:35 pm

It's been a long time since I've messed with any of that stuff. Now I'm thinking I looped those vst's with lightpipe through an RME 9652 card. I think I just used scsi for file transfer. Anyway the simplicity of your method with a cheap laptop would obviously be a lot better for live.

David Mitchell · Post by **David Mitchell** » 28 Jun 2019 9:53 pm

Scott Denniston wrote: Anyway the simplicity of your method with a cheap laptop would obviously be a lot better for live.

I think so.

David Donn · Post by **David Donn** » 29 Jun 2019 4:40 am

Interesting thread. Thanks for sharing David. I loaded your reverbs. Very nice!

For others trying this, SIR1 would not work for me on Windows 10 64-bit. Cantibile would not load it. However SIR3 worked. SIR3 requires a paid license.

David Mitchell · Post by **David Mitchell** » 29 Jun 2019 6:10 am

Thanks David and you are very welcome!

Michael Butler · Post by **Michael Butler** » 29 Jun 2019 10:23 am

david: i find this very interesting, however, i'm on a mac and will have to wait for that version.

in reading the posts, it appears that this is a DAW for live use only in that it does not have the capability to record nor does it have the built in content that your typical DAW has. since it only uses vst plugins that would make it have less of a strain on the computer's cpu. that would be a plus as compared to ableton live which is built for both recording and live usage, but, live has the capability to handle changes in sound readily.

i have quite a few tube guitar amps that i love. i also have reason, live and logic programs that i also use, for example, a rhythm guitar part, and, i feel that they do something like that quite well. however, when it comes to lead guitar, i'll almost always use a tube amp. yes, i realize that i am comparing live usage vs. recording.

for the price, this seems like a viable program for those who have no fear of the computer world in their live music. cut and dried, one use only with the only question, as one posted, being how to easily switch from one plugin to another.

good luck.
play music!

David Mitchell · Post by **David Mitchell** » 29 Jun 2019 12:41 pm

Michael Butler wrote:david: i find this very interesting, however, i'm on a mac and will have to wait for that version.

in reading the posts, it appears that this is a DAW for live use only in that it does not have the capability to record nor does it have the built in content that your typical DAW has. since it only uses vst plugins that would make it have less of a strain on the computer's cpu. that would be a plus as compared to ableton live which is built for both recording and live usage, but, live has the capability to handle changes in sound readily.

i have quite a few tube guitar amps that i love. i

also have reason, live and logic programs that i also use, for example, a rhythm guitar part, and, i feel that they do something like that quite well. however, when it comes to lead guitar, i'll almost always use a tube amp. yes, i realize that i am comparing live usage vs. recording.

for the price, this seems like a viable program for those who have no fear of the computer world in their live music. cut and dried, one use only with the only question, as one posted, being how to easily switch from one plugin to another.

good luck.
play music!

Michael I think you are right. It seems to not tax the CPU like my Steinberg Nuendo DAW and it opens fast. The more plugins you have in a DAW seems to start slowing the opening speed down. Another way to have better performance is lighten up on the video consumption. Video really taxes the CPU unless you have a powerful gaming video card taking up the slack. In Cantabile you may encounter a few plugins that draw too much power and crash it and if this happens just remove that plugin temporarily from it's vst folder till the system resets. Most plugins don't even cause it to break a sweat.

Ken Karn · Post by **Ken Karn** » 29 Jun 2019 8:10 pm

Scuffham S-Gear. Google it. Youâ€™re ears will take it from there.

Lee Baucum · Post by **Lee Baucum** » 30 Jun 2019 3:16 am

I find this topic fascinating and am enjoying reading about all the possibilities; however...

CLICK HERE

David Mitchell · Post by **David Mitchell** » 30 Jun 2019 11:16 am

Lee you have a point and on live gigs I prefer to use an amp with built in spring reverb only. I hate even carrying a processor although my Yamaha SPX-90 sounds much better than a spring reverb live. I only use plugins for sterile studio recording and have for a couple of decades now. They just beat the heck out of any cheap digital reverb and certainly springs but I do have some good digital recreations of various spring units slapping and boingin'. The only thing it can't do is the loud crashing sound you hear when a twin reverb falls out of a chair. I mainly posted this because it is free for anyone with a computer and a soundcard.
If you don't want to use plugins don't use them. Not being sarcastic but my gosh man the program and plugins are all free and that's something that wasn't possible only a few years ago without using an expensive DAW setup like ProTools with all the farm cards to hear them work in real time.

Ian Rae · Post by **Ian Rae** » 1 Jul 2019 5:48 am

This is all fascinating. I am not a technophobe but although the cost and weight savings are clear, I can't justify the investment in the time needed to get my head round all the details when I could be practising.

So far I've only worked with set-up-and-leave-it PAs, but if I ever graduate to gigs with a sound man I'm ready to give him a DI from my over-the-shoulder Telonics rack and ditch the cabs. The FX from the "cheap" Lexicon reverb may be limited, but they're ahead of my playing.

I did a theatre show on trombone recently where the keyboard player had everything going through a MacBook (I think). I asked what he would do if it crashed and he said "It doesn't". Faith is an essential component, obviously

Godfrey Arthur · Post by **Godfrey Arthur** » 1 Jul 2019 7:04 am

Brett Lanier wrote: have a Soundtoys effect rack immediately engaged.

Soundtoys makes impressive plug-ins.

I'm still using a pert-near 20 year old Pitchblender.

Matt Berg · Post by **Matt Berg** » 2 Jul 2019 6:37 am

One thing I never understood about plug ins and amp modelling for live performance is that they're not taking into account the acoustics of the room you're playing in and the amp you're playing on. Not the same as a recording situation, unless you're outdoors, there's a sound to the venue that's not being taken into account.

Scott Denniston · Post by **Scott Denniston** » 2 Jul 2019 7:00 am

In most situations you could adjust parameters by twiddling knobs just like on an amp. The model or profile isn't frozen or anything it's just a starting point for whatever sound you're looking for. The argument that it doesn't work in the real world because of different rooms is kind of ridiculous as you adjust eq and reverb etc. anyway on your amp for the room. The whole trick in my opinion is knowing your amp functions and settings well for on-the-fly adjusting be it an amp or software. Of course you also need to bring along a set of ears.

Matt Berg · Post by **Matt Berg** » 2 Jul 2019 7:10 am

Scott Denniston wrote:In most situations you could adjust parameters by twiddling knobs just like on an amp. The model or profile isn't frozen or anything it's just a starting point for whatever sound you're looking for. The argument that it doesn't work in the real world because of different rooms is kind of ridiculous as you adjust eq and reverb etc. anyway on your amp for the room. The whole trick in my opinion is knowing your amp functions and settings well for on-the-fly adjusting be it an amp or software. Of course you also need to bring along a set of ears.

There's a difference between 2 EQ and 1 reverb knobs and booting up various apps to adjust a whole bunch of parameters. End of the day, you only know what it sounds like on stage anyhow, not out in the room. In a larger venue, your amp is for monitoring and should provide a good sound for the soundman to mix.

Different strokes, I was turned off on modeling by the horrible Line 6s, I'm sure there's much better stuff out there, but why try to recreate the mojo with software when I have a black panel Fender already?

Scott Denniston · Post by **Scott Denniston** » 2 Jul 2019 8:32 am

Oh yes, it's come a long way since the PODs. I've never tried a laptop and software live but I've never had as good a sound live as I've dialed in very easily on my Kemper using a Little Walter 59 profile. Then you could flip a switch and play your tele out of a Dumble. I think the difference is in the technology. Profiling is not modeling. As I understand it: modeling mimics what an amp SHOULD sound like with a particular circuit. Profiling is a mirror image. When you a/b with the amp and Kemper there is very little if any difference. Actually though I played a gig with a POD years ago and quite liked it.

David Mitchell · Post by **David Mitchell** » 12 Jul 2019 9:17 pm

To answer a few people's question. Yes you can run vst amp modeling simululators with this host program. A few of the amp modeling simululators are free too. I'm doing it and my steel has never sounded better.

Josh Yenne · Post by **Josh Yenne** » 12 Jul 2019 11:20 pm

I love technology. Love it. And Iâ€™m on the younger side of the board. But Iâ€™m sorry. I still have never felt a 1 and 0 feel like a tube full of electrons being pushed to the brink and the physical life they have.

Maybe youâ€™ve solved it but. Iâ€™m dubious. I truly feel there is a difference between real physical and emulation. Not saying Iâ€™m right. Just saying this is what Iâ€™ve felt.

David Mitchell · Post by **David Mitchell** » 13 Jul 2019 2:41 am

There is a difference when you are in a room with an amp. You can hear all the Dynamics of the room shaping the sound because we hear in 3d. When that same sound is on a record you can no longer tell the difference. It's a picture of that sound you heard in a room. A modeling amp would be like playing with your real amp in a room and hearing the playback of what you played. Of course the playback won't feel like your amp but you can get pretty close. It's the same as a recording don't sound like a live band even though the band used their vintage Fender amps to make the recording. Modeling amps are canned sound but they have the advantage of sounding like more than one amp and also can sound like a Marshall stack screaming at low volumes because you don't have to rely on the amps speakers to get loud enough they are straining it's guts to get the sound you want. Too different tools. A pair of Fireman's boots and a pair of tennis shoes are both footware and it's according to what you want to do which one is best.