All My Steel Guitar Amps Have Become Horse & Buggy

Harold Dye · Post by **Harold Dye** » 27 Jun 2019 5:41 am

This might be good I don't know but now that it's out there how long will it be before we won"t need a steel anymore? We might be able to sit there with a laptop and play intros and fills. Sounds exciting, won't have to haul all this stuff.

David Mitchell · Post by **David Mitchell** » 27 Jun 2019 5:54 am

Dale, I haven't heard Kemper or Fractal amps. I'm just going by amps I've had like the Line 6 and Fender Cyber Twin. Close but no cigars. I will say they did have a smorgasbord of different sounds to choose from.
I have a plugin I got years ago for free that will make any instrument warm and mushy sounding just like the old black faced Fenders I had. You can even add too much of it and turn your signal into warm soup. It's just harmonic distortion. Harmonic distortion is not like a stomp box distortion a rock player uses. It's very subtle and the human ear doesn't perceive it as distortion but what people describe as warm, buttery, fat, etc.

David Mitchell · Post by **David Mitchell** » 27 Jun 2019 6:18 am

George Seymour wrote:Very very intriguing
Small monitor speakers? I suspect thatâ€™s surprising good
I just recently purchased a pair of Bose SP1s for a bluegrass project pa and recently
Used one of them in a quick in out gig... couldnâ€™t believe how good that little speaker sounded... look forward to hearing more about this

Yes George those little skinny Bose speakers are amazing aren't they. You don't need hernia surgery after moving them either. Speaker and speaker enclosure design is more efficient today. That's why those little studio monitors can be so loud and have so much low end.

David Mitchell · Post by **David Mitchell** » 27 Jun 2019 6:33 am

Dale Rottacker wrote:
David Mitchell wrote:https://www.dropbox.com/home/SIR%20Lexicon%20Impulses

I've already spent countless hours collecting all the famous Lexicon sounds for you. These are not from the cheap $300.00 hardware units. These impulse responses come from the expensive studio units. My gift to the steel forum. You will need the free program SIR reverb to run them. Then you will need Cantabile for a VST host on your computer desktop to run them in real time like a guitar amp with no latency or you can use them to mix in your DAW.
Who wouldn't want to have $12,000.00 Studio Lexicon sounds on their steel guitar?
I got AMS, Quantec, Eventide and many other top brands in impulse responses even real EMT 140 plates all free. EMT 250 digital reverbs. That was the $15,000.00 reverb.
Been using this for 2-3 years... Thank-you David

Dale before you buy another amp I wish you would find a good laptop PC, if you can't find one I'll send you one and just load this Cantabile Lite program in it and some plugs and try it out. You can build any amp you want and hundreds more and have them all stored for instant recall. You will need an audio interface to get in and out of it but I know you already have that.
It's the difference between eating at the same restaurant everyday versus owning a kitchen and a pantry so you can cook it your way.
Just use one of the amps you already have to play it through. Just turn all the eq settings to flat and turn the reverb off so it's only making the signal louder.

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 27 Jun 2019 8:57 am

I have lots of laptops and I'd like to try what you have when you have a way to host your files.

Working with real-time processing, I have generally found that it's essential to disable all the normal modern operating system services that a typical PC runs - e.g., all the internet, networking, security, update, and other unneeded services that constantly interrupt the real-time audio processes but are completely unneeded (and IMO undesired) in a completely offline, real-time system like this. Of course, this places some burden on users to virus-test anything put on this system elsewhere, and you're stuck with manually inputting the files via USB drive or something like that. But real-time systems, IMO, need a predictable platform that isn't constantly being interrupted.

My personal take is that this is gonna be absolutely fabulous for time-based effects, which can generally be accurately modeled as linear, time-invariant systems - and thus impulse response convolution and other LTI system synthesis techniques are perfect. But I'm not so sure about gain-based effects. So I am, so far, not convinced that VST plugins will replace my cool old tube amps, which are a bit quirky and quite nonlinear at several levels. I started using modelers almost 20 years ago, and I agree that modelers/profilers are indeed useful in many situations. I admit I haven't tried a Kemper yet, which seems to have the reputation as the current state-of-the-art. But with everything I've tried, it's generally been close-but-no-cigar to a real tweed Champ/Deluxe/Pro/Bassman, a black/silverface Princeton/Deluxe/Pro/Twin Reverb, or a JTM45/Plexi/JCM800 Marshall, for example. And that's the type of amps I frequently use - my old Deluxe Reverb with a JBL D130F is my main thing right now.

I also work with a culture of musicians, frequently playing roots music of some sort, which is resistant to this kind of stuff. I have brought a computer to gigs, and it is frequently not received well. That's a different issue.

Greg Cutshaw · Post by **Greg Cutshaw** » 27 Jun 2019 11:25 am

The Fractal Axe III is pretty advanced. It has stellar effects and extremely advanced models. A 2013 paper shows some insight into their tube amp models:

https://www.fractalaudio.com/downloads/ ... nology.pdf

A quick overview of the product is here:

https://www.fractalaudio.com/iii/

You can use it as is for recording but for live performance you'd have to invest in some pretty expensive powered monitors or the equivalent to accurately reproduce the sounds.

So whether the laptop with VST's or something like the Fractal Axe III is better is worth debating. I am real happy with my guitar and steel amps but I can produce a far better tone in a DAW like Reaper using stereo reverb VST's and the like.

Rich Upright · Post by **Rich Upright** » 27 Jun 2019 12:07 pm

Ya know; all these laptops & fractals & Kempers & Cantabiles & all that can sound good, even come close to emulating the sound of tubes, but what they CAN'T do...& NEVER will be able to do, is emulate the FEEL, sensitivity,gain compression & response you get with tubes. And that affects how you play. Nope...only hot, glowing bottles for this cowboy.
Plus,while this stuff may work for steel, half the time I'm onstage with a Tele, and no modeler or laptop will make it scream like Roy Buchanan did!

Tubes 'till I'm dead & rotting!

David Mitchell · Post by **David Mitchell** » 27 Jun 2019 1:30 pm

I always wanted the sound of a real EMT plate reverb in my amp instead of a bouncing spring reverb or digital reverb which just mimics a plate reverb. Now I can with convolution reverb. I've owned real plates in the studio and like tube amps they have their own response to input.
I will try to get you guys links to all this cool stuff. The computer is the processor, the soundcard is your inputs and outputs and the plugins is your firmware. 21st century Profex unit that's infinitely upgradable by the user and no need for a DAW to process your effects.

Greg Lambert · Post by **Greg Lambert** » 27 Jun 2019 2:54 pm

Working with real-time processing, I have generally found that it's essential to disable all the normal modern operating system services that a typical PC runs - e.g., all the internet, networking, security, update, and other unneeded services that constantly interrupt the real-time audio processes but are completely unneeded (and IMO undesired) in a completely offline, real-time system like this. Of course, this places some burden on users to virus-test anything put on this system elsewhere, and you're stuck with manually inputting the files via USB drive or something like that. But real-time systems, IMO, need a predictable platform that isn't constantly being interrupted.

Exactly why A Linux system is needed for reliability. It may not be 100% reliable but its sure more reliable than a windows based system.

David Mitchell · Post by **David Mitchell** » 27 Jun 2019 4:14 pm

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1m2bl7a ... sp=sharing

Okay guys here is a downloadable link to the SIR program and Impulse response files. It's a big file. 1.2 gigs. I also included Cantabile Lite if you want to turn your PC into a standalone effects/midi processor. It all runs on windows only. You will need to place the SIR .dll file in your VST plugin folder. You will also need to put your Impulse response files in a folder and name it. When you open the SIR program you will see the open file button. Point it to the folder where your IR file folder is located. Choose which IR you want and load it. You can adjust the sound even further once the IR is loaded. Happy effect processor building!

Dale Rottacker · Post by **Dale Rottacker** » 27 Jun 2019 4:41 pm

Like I said David... Youâ€™re a Recording Genius!!!

Godfrey Arthur · Post by **Godfrey Arthur** » 27 Jun 2019 5:05 pm

Interesting thread.

Much to be said about the advances in audio technology.

Most FOH mixers are expanded versions of what is being proposed here. Mixers that have a multitude of processors and effects at a click's notice.

No more hauling and connecting of numerous rack gear.

But this type of system is for those that can appreciate the tie-in of digital and an engineer would be first to notice this.

Mention of the modelers, Kempler, Fractal are stand alone units of the digital all-in-one process.

But the adage, the more things change, the more they remain the same is Sisyphus's lament.

During a Josh Groban concert, the Avid FOH mixer had some effects conflicts and there was some head scratching as to what the problem was and how to fix it.

But these go to eleven...

Nice thing though is everyone is free to use as much of or as little of the new fangled devices.

As far as creating sounds on your onstage rig, sending them to the FOH is not always what you get out front. If your engineer is working for the band, and not the individual muso in the band, YMMV as to what pops out of your instrument in the FOH mix. Not unless you're job is like The Edge who relies heavily on effects.

All is quiet on New Year's day:

Like flying a plane, you can look at your instruments, or look out the window and still get to your destination.

David Mitchell · Post by **David Mitchell** » 27 Jun 2019 6:06 pm

Dale Rottacker wrote:Like I said David... Youâ€™re a Recording Genius!!!

Thanks Dale but I'm not so sure about that. I just read a lot when I should be practicing steel.

I made a little video demonstrating how easy and cheap (free!) to turn a laptop PC into a standalone state of the art effects processor. No DAW required and fires up as quick as a hardware processor. It's the difference between eating in the same restaurant every night versus having a kitchen and a pantry full of spices and cooking supper your own way.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAKL5_La3Os

Greg Cutshaw · Post by **Greg Cutshaw** » 27 Jun 2019 7:47 pm

I downloaded your 1.2 gig file. The sir program folder is empty. Was able to load a demo version of Sir2 into Reaper and access all your reverbs (Lexicon etc) through that. It appears that the reverbs you gave us use the Sir app with different settings to generate each reverb just like Ambience does. The reverbs you provided are just stunning though!

The only Sir program I could find online costs $169 US dollars. I would be nice if you could get the Sir program directory to work. I unpacked it using Winzip as FYunzip would not work on the file at all.

Your process and vst's are identical to what I am doing in Reaper except your method allows the vst's to be used live.

The Fractal Axe III reverbs are just as stunning though and it provides the same capability as your process but without resorting to a laptop and in a more stage and road rugged package with just as much editing and saving flexibility. The Fractal stuff has a ton of studio quality effect and Fractal issues frequent and free updates to their firmware so it's in no way a fixed hardware platform. The Fractal also provides a recording interface, 8 usb ports, multiple inputs and outputs in 1/4" and XLR formats, a huge selection of cabs, effects, premaps, power amps, incredible stereo routing, easy control of all parms in all function boxes. Their tube amp sims accurately model tube amp sag/compression, harmonic distortion out to the 3rd order, input level affects, amp tone stacks and etc.

So there are at least two real easy ways to get a fully customized studio quality setup. Either buy a Fractal/Kemper/Line unit or a load up a computer with vst's.

David Mitchell · Post by **David Mitchell** » 27 Jun 2019 9:16 pm

Greg, the version you want to use is the 1005 version to be compatible with Cantabile but you may just want to use them in your DAW and I think the 1008 version will work with that. All that is needed is in the download. After you unzip "Sir Impulse Responses" click on the folder "Sir Program" then unzip the "SIR_1005" file and you should see the "SIR_1005.dll" file that is the file that makes SIR work. There is no installation process. Just drop that file in you vst folder and your software will recognize it. Hope that helps. Let me know if it works. I use the 1005.dll because it's compatible with everything and it's free.

Brett Lanier · Post by **Brett Lanier** » 27 Jun 2019 9:42 pm

There's no doubt you can do a lot of cool things with plug-in's. I've messed around plenty with this.

Only thing is... What's the point of all these sounds and effects if you can't switch them in and out easily on the fly? The interface, power, and speakers are going to be the thing that makes or breaks it compared to using quality effects pedals and a good amp. Maybe I missed it but did you say what kind of hardware you're using, David? Also, anyone using a computer rig like this would probably want a midi controller for switching between patches, or at least for having a quick way to control how wet the signal is. How would you handle your delay to reverb ratio mid tune, without scrolling around on a laptop (with fingerpicks...)? Suddenly it gets complicated.

David Mitchell · Post by **David Mitchell** » 27 Jun 2019 10:04 pm

Brett the Cantabile program is built for midi. That's it's main thing and already in use by many live keyboard players so I assume, not sure, but I assume it has a provision for midi control through midi banks. The website and help menu can probably give you a better description of it's capabilities. If setup correctly you shouldn't even need a screen except for editing.

Brett Lanier · Post by **Brett Lanier** » 27 Jun 2019 10:13 pm

Well yes, i get that it can do it and probably pretty easily. I have Mainstage 3 on my Mac, which is kind of like their version of Ableton. But for everyone here who's reading this and currently plays through a few fx pedals and an amp, what does this live rig look like? The computer side of things is only half of it, and probably the easier half.

David Mitchell · Post by **David Mitchell** » 27 Jun 2019 10:14 pm

Being a steel player and sitting down all the time I just sit it on my steel guitar case sitting right beside me. I've always played like that because it makes a good drink and extra .010 strings holder. I keep my song list on it too. I'd be lost without my guitar case sitting next to me. Most singers are gonna take a break and talk anyhow and you use that time to switch sounds. I'm pretty much a one sound guy 98% of the time but what I can do with this rack for that one sound is so much better than any hardware unit I have found including anything Lexicon makes. This program can do Lexicon and so many other spacial sounds. As a recording engineer I'm excited about studio processing power available for live use.

David Mitchell · Post by **David Mitchell** » 27 Jun 2019 10:23 pm

Another thing. Just bring your guitar amp as you usually do for amplification purposes and just use the computer for your effects rack just like the old Pro-Fex and in the unlikely event the computer fails the signal will keep right on going less the effects. Just reach back and apply your amps reverb. Not a big deal. I've had hardware processors give up the ghost and go up in smoke. When that transformer goes down it's all over but the cryin'.

Brett Lanier · Post by **Brett Lanier** » 27 Jun 2019 10:32 pm

I guess when I think about all the possibilities of what a computer rig is capable of, I just start thinking about how I'm going to get to that stuff quick enough to be able to actually use it.

Here's a pic i snapped of my rig in the studio last week. It's all right there like you described. Even a multitimbral analog synth that I trigger with the steel... I'm sure I could do similar things with a computer rig, but I don't know how I'd get to the sounds in time for when I need them. Live or in the studio things can move pretty quickly.

David Mitchell · Post by **David Mitchell** » 28 Jun 2019 5:48 am

Wow Brett! That's quite a rig you have there. You should see if you can make all that happen on a computer. Many of the most popular floor hardware boxes people have made digital reproductions of and rewiring them is definitely easier than crawling on the floor and using patch cables. I was a salesman in a music store for over 20 years and was a Boss/Roland dealer as well as many other brands. We stocked most floor boxes and rack gear. I've noticed many of those old devices are worth a lot of money now. Like a little Ibanez TR808 we use to sell is going for like 4-$500.00 used!
Amazing!

Greg Cutshaw · Post by **Greg Cutshaw** » 28 Jun 2019 7:41 am

Check out this video at 17:30 and on for a few minutes. Look at the routing and sound blocks. Extremely easy to program and call up and adjust. The owner of Fractal has a horde of vintage amps that he loves and he has spared no effort in accurately creating their tones in the Fractal Axe III. Also note how easy it is to patch external effects in to the Axe III loops.

I particularly liked his use of the TC Electronic Mimiq Doubler Pedal that re-creates what you would get in the studio if you doubled your own part. This trick was used by John Hughey and Brent Mason a lot. The pedal creates a second track of your playing, add some light chorus and variable delays and sums it back to the original to give you a fat wall of double tracked sound:

TC Mimiq pedal

David, when I unpacked your archive there was a Sir program folder but it was totally empty!

David Mitchell · Post by **David Mitchell** » 28 Jun 2019 7:52 am

Greg Cutshaw wrote:Check out this video at 17:30 and on for a few minutes. Look at the routing and sound blocks. Extremely easy to program and call up and adjust. The owner of Fractal has a horde of vintage amps that he loves and he has spared no effort in accurately creating their tones in the Fractal Axe III. Also note how easy it is to patch external effects in to the Axe III loops.

I particularly liked his use of the TC Electronic Mimiq Doubler Pedal that re-creates what you would get in the studio if you doubled your own part. This trick was used by John Hughey and Brent Mason a lot. The pedal creates a second track of your playing, add some light chorus and variable delays and sums it back to the original to give you a fat wall of double tracked sound:

TC Mimiq pedal

David, when I unpacked your archive there was a Sir program folder but it was totally empty!

Greg try this.This is only the SIR program. It's just one .dll file that you place in your VST directory. No further installation needed. Your DAW or Cantabile will recognize it.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1pS4cqm ... sp=sharing

David Mitchell · Post by **David Mitchell** » 28 Jun 2019 8:00 am

Greg you may have Windows Defender or an anti-virus program blocking any execute files you receive. Just a thought. I've downloaded all these files myself to make sure they are downloading and they are all there. You might check your security settings or at least release them until you can get the download.