Transitioning to PSG from non PSG

Paul Seager · Post by **Paul Seager** » 23 Jun 2019 11:22 am

I've been thinking about moving from regular steel to PSG for some time and the main de-motivater has been the sheer cost of the PSG. (I've been advised not to waste time on a beginner instrument and go for a D10 from the start) Anyway that itch ain't going away!

So I'm thinking what could I do to prepare myself before shelling out 4k or more? I play a Rickenbacher D8, mainly using A6 right now. Musically I play country but mostly Mavericks-oriented stuff which actually suits A6 quite well. But I'd like to figure out how an E9 works ... without the pedals! I'm thinking of tuning my second neck (rarely used) to the top 8 strings of a PSG E9.

To put this idea into some context, I was watching a YT video where E9 is explained and the presenter played some open string stuff and I immediately heard a lot of country riffs right there. I understand the basic use of the pedals, it's not to distant from (but a darn-sight easier) than slants! The aim is to orientate myself to the tuning.

It's not a great amount of effort to re-string but is there going to be any value in doing this?

\ paul

Jack Stoner · Post by **Jack Stoner** » 23 Jun 2019 1:37 pm

Another thing for practice. I started on lap steel. Bar handling is different. With pedal steel the accepted correct way is to mute the strings with your right hand and slide the bar to where you want to go, rather than pick up the bar and move it to the next position. That and "palm blocking" were the two items I really had to work on.

Nathan French · Post by **Nathan French** » 23 Jun 2019 5:54 pm

Iâ€™m just a beginner but E9 doesnâ€™t really make any sense without pedals.

Thereâ€™s a lot of all-or-nothing advice around PSG and while thereâ€™s reasons for that, I think the #1 rule of pedal steel is: have a pedal steel.

Per Berner · Post by **Per Berner** » 24 Jun 2019 4:10 am

I would begin by halving the cost by going for a single neck PSG, that's complication (and weight) enough.

Otherwise I find pedal and non-pedal steel to be very different, a totally different apporoach. I started out on PSG and still find non-pedal steel very challenging...

Bob Carlucci · Post by **Bob Carlucci** » 24 Jun 2019 5:03 am

No need to spend anywhere near 4 K.. Get a good used D10,, They are readily available in super nice condition for 2K or less all the time right on this forum.. If, you're in Europe shipping costs will be your biggest problem I suppose. bob

Bob Carlucci · Post by **Bob Carlucci** » 24 Jun 2019 5:03 am

No need to spend anywhere near 4 K.. Get a good used D10,, They are readily available in super nice condition for 2K or less all the time right on this forum.. If, you're in Europe shipping costs will be your biggest problem I suppose. bob

Bobby Snell · Post by **Bobby Snell** » 24 Jun 2019 5:47 am

Since the top two strings of E9 are so different from a regular straight steel tuning, it would be a very good idea to get started by tuning your guitar that way.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 24 Jun 2019 6:27 am

I'll second the suggestions of Bob and Bobby!

Paul Seager · Post by **Paul Seager** » 24 Jun 2019 12:01 pm

Thanks all for the comments, advice and encouragement. Yes Europe is expensive for a used instrument and those that turn up are worth avoiding. Framus and ABM are often on the market at low prices and anyone that has done research knows why! US built instruments are rarer and hold their value when sold here and the shipping and import costs make you take a step back before ordering overseas.

I considered the single neck. A basic, "beginner instrument" new will be around â‚¬1400, and not much less used. A new, made in Germany, WBS will cost â‚¬4k for a D10 and that is most likely the route I would go. No half steps, and the loss on investment is not so bad if it doesn't work out.

But heck, I'm going to try the top 8 strings of an E9 on my non pedal and see how it feels!

\ paul

Per Berner · Post by **Per Berner** » 25 Jun 2019 5:50 am

I would say it would be easier to sell an SD-10 than a D-10 without losing any significant amount of money if you change your mind somewhere down the line, especially here in Europe where there are very few pro players and even fewer who play C6 jazz. I've seen many D-10s in good condition not sell for ages, despite being priced right. The demand for SD-10s is much healthier.

And an SD-10 is easier on your back as well!

Fred Treece · Post by **Fred Treece** » 25 Jun 2019 7:00 am

Paul Seager wrote:But heck, I'm going to try the top 8 strings of an E9 on my non pedal and see how it feels!\ paul

Try the bottom 8 too.

Kevin Fix · Post by **Kevin Fix** » 25 Jun 2019 6:46 pm

I started on a lap steel many moons ago. I switched to PSG two years after playing lap. 40 plus years ago. Buy a D10, 8 + 4. E9th and C6. You can find one in great shape for around 2000 to 2500. Watch the forum. Sho Buds or a MSA. Latter model Bud if possible. Been playing Buds for 40 years. Had a Mullen for about 2 years. Was not a Bud.

Paul Seager · Post by **Paul Seager** » 25 Jun 2019 9:13 pm

Per Berner wrote:I would say it would be easier to sell an SD-10 than a D-10 ... especially here in Europe

Is a SD10 the single neck on a double neck body and an arm-rest?

Fred Treece · Post by **Fred Treece** » 26 Jun 2019 7:55 am

Paul Seager wrote:
Per Berner wrote:I would say it would be easier to sell an SD-10 than a D-10 ... especially here in Europe
Is a SD10 the single neck on a double neck body and an arm-rest?

Yes. SD10 is shorthand for â€œSingle Double 10â€, which, like so many other things about this instrument, only makes sense to steel players. I believe the arm rest is optional, but it seems most SD10â€™s have them.

Jeff Mead · Post by **Jeff Mead** » 26 Jun 2019 1:50 pm

You've definitely not wasted any time learning A6. With A&B pedals engaged plus a knee lever (one of the pretty standard changes) you'l have your familiar A6 on strings 4-9 (plus a high A on 3).

This has got me out of trouble on more than one occasion. If I get lost, I have ny A6 "safety net" until I find my way again.

Almost every single lick you know on A6 can be played on E9.

I'd say start with a good quality S10 to start with instead of the doubleneck route if E9 is what you are mostly interested in. For a given price, you'll get a better S10 than D10.

Paul Seager · Post by **Paul Seager** » 27 Jun 2019 1:20 am

Jeff Mead wrote:You've definitely not wasted any time learning A6. With A&B pedals engaged plus a knee lever (one of the pretty standard changes) you'l have your familiar A6 on strings 4-9 (plus a high A on 3).

Yeah I did notice that in an E9 chart. In fact I have a research task to follow up because it looked to me that E9 is very oriented to the key of A! So much to learn, so little time!

Anyway, I have restrung my second neck to the top 8 strings of E9 and started applying YT lessons, replicating pedals with slants. It obviously will never sound like a PSG, I accept that but boy, within an hour I realized that non-PSG can be so much fun when you're stimulated! I threw in a couple of new slants at a rehearsal last nights which brought encouraging smiles from my band mates!

Thanks again to you all.

\ paul

Jeff Mead · Post by **Jeff Mead** » 27 Jun 2019 1:39 am

Paul Seager wrote: Anyway, I have restrung my second neck to the top 8 strings of E9 and started applying YT lessons, replicating pedals with slants.

Even without slants, you can do some nice stuff using the string pairs 3&5 and 4&6. That high G# string is such a big part of the E9 sound.

BTW - although I agree with everyone who says get a decent guitar but if you found a used student model going cheap (that you could probably re-sell for the same price) it would buy you some time until the right one came along (I know it's harder here in Europe to find pedal steels). If you only used the A&B pedals for a few months it would really open things up for you and make the learning curve a bit shallower.

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 27 Jun 2019 8:51 am

You can get a cheap ticket to the USA on Norway airlines and bring a steel back. I just bought a round trip to Helsinki from Austin for $600. Your ticket and baggage fees might cost less than shipping.

Travis Egnor · Post by **Travis Egnor** » 28 Jun 2019 5:18 pm

Donâ€™t confuse an S-10 with a beginner instrument. There are a lot of very fine S-10 guitars out there. Thereâ€™s no reason to pay extra dough and carry around a D-10 if youâ€™re not going to use it.